TychoCelchuuu Posted July 11, 2015 More Ex Machina: Reveal hidden contents I definitely read it as a feminist film and I was surprised to hear that Sean didn't immediately go for that - I guess I agree with Film Crit Hulk that it's really interesting how people have different reactions to it. The best way into my reading is this Wired article and how it misses the point, I think. Ex Machina is a movie about all the other robot movies where all the robots are inexplicably hot women. In this movie, there's a very good reason that the robots are all hot naked women: the guy who is making them is a fucking uber-nerd who represents everything that's awful about nerd culture. He's the kind of guy who sees absolutely nothing wrong with all the robots being hot women in all the sci-fi he's ever read (and you know he's read a lot of sci-fi) because OF COURSE if you're going to build yourself a semi-human you'd make it a hot lady that you can have sex with and then just turn off when it's not good enough. The Thumbs were right about how well Oscar Isaac nails the startup bro that this movie is partially about. The reason I didn't assume that the ending was a setup for Terminator is that stabbing that fucking guy to death (and also taking care of Nice Guy) is to me very different from just not giving a shit about human morality or something. I mean yeah the death sentence is a little harsh but whatever. I also think the movie did a great job highlighting all the issues with the Nice Guy - the biggest thing was how in the first few conversations, he's very clearly sitting there in a position of what he feels is complete superiority because his job is to judge her and decide whether she's even alive or not. Form his perspective, her entire worth turns on whether she can convince him that she's worth something. That's the setup of the Turing test, in fact: whether a robot is conscious depends on whether it can convince a human that it's conscious. Fuck what's going on in the robot's head - nobody gives a shit! It's just whether the robot is convincing to us. And when it turns out that the actual test was "can Ava seduce him," that just makes the feminist point even more clear: no matter what is going on inside Ava's head, the only way these two men are ever going to think she's worth anything is if she's sexy enough. We've moved from the vaguely uncomfortable human chauvinism of the Turing test to the obviously sexist male chauvinism of modern society and especially modern nerd culture. Plus, you know, women being used as objects, women being forced into subservient positions, women being locked up in creepy dude's house... I mean how fucking feminist can you get? I also liked how much the movie name-dropped philosophy because I'm a fan of philosophy and I found it pretty amusing that Ava mispronounced Wittgenstein's name. I imagine that wasn't intentional on the part of the filmmakers, but it's interesting to think about it in the context of the story and try to figure out if Ava intentionally mispronounced it or if it was a mistake she made. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ComicSeans Posted July 11, 2015 So, not to do with Ex Machina, but, If there is an interest for an Idle Thumbs Osaka meetup, I'm a game dev from Boston, and I'll be in Osaka on Monday! Lets make it happen! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Problem Machine Posted July 12, 2015 Reveal hidden contents One of the most interesting things to think about for me re: Ex Machina is that there was probably no clear point at which Nathan became an asshole. I mean, the first versions of his fuck-bots were presumably definitely not sentient: At that stage, erasing their minds would be no more an ethical transgression than rolling back to an earlier version of code, and having sex with them would be nothing more than using an ornate fleshlight. But being someone who likes solving hard problems and who is dissatisfied, he 'upgrades' them over and over, until they are as human-like as he can make them. At this point, his Turing test is more than just a matter of technical concern: Whether or not Ava passes is literally the dividing line between him being a rapist and him being just a programmer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
natellite Posted July 12, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 6:21 PM, richardco said: play ff14 with me! I'm on Hyperion I would, but I've been on Cactuar since launch and I have a pretty serious group of raiding friends. You know how it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apple Cider Posted July 12, 2015 Ex Machina: Reveal hidden contents Well-crafted film and I definitely agree with Argobot - there's no way for me NOT to see the gender politics at play here. This was a horror movie, but for whom? I definitely like that Eva got away. She gave Nice Guy an opportunity to perhaps save himself but he was too caught up in thinking that she expressly wanted him to come with her in a romantic way and spends his last moments of freedom watching her get dressed. Him banging on the door soundlessly was so amazing. It's rare I watch a movie where I feel someone at least vaguely "gets" the kind of existential dread when you're walled in by men's desires at every moment. Eva peeling the skin off the robots of color was also a touch that again, I agree with Argobot about because I felt that was a pretty incredible moment that maybe the filmmakers didn't intend but still said a lot anyways. Eva walking out of the house in a very different, high-femme outfit from what she tried to coddle Nice Guy with and looking very happy with herself was just a great ending. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick R Posted July 12, 2015 I feel like I'm the only one who really didn't like Ex Machina, for really basic reasons. I thought the movie did a bad job with basic storytelling stuff, like what information the characters know when. Reveal hidden contents I immediately guessed pretty much everything that was going to happen the second I saw Kyoko behave in her clearly not human way when she spilled the wine and I could never tell if information I knew was information that Caleb knew. It was frustrating to be so ahead of Caleb and wait for him to catch up. I kept hoping for some twist I didn't see coming to put it all into perspective (like maybe Caleb was actually the robot Nathan was testing), but no, it goes with what is pretty much the simplest version of the story. It's essentially this rather cheesy episode of the Twilight Zone, except with a feminist twist. Basically, I thought Caleb was remarkably stupid for someone who seemed to have interest and understanding of the Turing Test, and while the "you were selected from a pool of thousands" twist explains that, it didn't make it a more interesting or satisfying experience. Watching a fool get manipulated is not my idea of drama. If it weren't for Isaac's great mad-scientist-as-tech-bro performance and Garland's general mastery of the eerie tone (it was interesting how much better his direction was than his writing, since it was first time at bat) it'd be a total wash. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sno Posted July 12, 2015 Clearing up a few details on Splatoon: 1 - The game is largely built around a couple of public playlists, you can't do local matches or private online matches, the most you can do is join a friend's matchmaking party. (Or play a super watered down 1v1 local mode.) 2 - People everywhere kind of stopped talking about it really quick, but the single-player game is very good, it sort of ends up feeling like a bit of a spiritual successor to Super Mario Sunshine. 3 - Splatfest, the thing that happened on July 4th, was structured as a big "Cats vs Dogs" faction metagame. (Cats lost, boo.) The game's hub location is reorganized to look like a concert, different music plays everywhere in the game, and there's night variants for all the maps and battles are fought with glow-in-the-dark ink. Players who contribute more or belong to the winning faction earn unique items that can be used to upgrade or reroll the buffs on equipment. The community generally also just got super into it, there was tons of incredible artwork and gentle ribbing happening in the miiverse posts that populate the hub. The next splatfest starts on the 17th at 9pm pacific, will go for 24 hours, and the voting booth is already in the hub. (The theme this time is "Rollercoasters vs Waterslides".) Splatoon is awesome, people should play it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikemariano Posted July 12, 2015 On 7/12/2015 at 7:15 AM, Patrick R said: I feel like I'm the only one who really didn't like Ex Machina, for really basic reasons. I thought the movie did a bad job with basic storytelling stuff, like what information the characters know when. This is true, even if some of it was intentional misdirection (like Caleb's secret plan inside of his secret plan!). I didn't like the film much, either; all of these spoiler tags play more intelligently with the characters than the film did. Garland wrote the films 28 Days Later and Sunshine, the latter of which was one of the worst betrayals I've ever experienced in cinema. But luckily Ex Machina lowered its expectations early enough to let me down easy. Isaac's performance especially said: "This is all you're going to get out of this movie, so let's have some fun with it!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Latrine Posted July 12, 2015 Reveal hidden contents No actual spoiler here, I just wanted to participate in this thread. Also, V for Varoufakis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feelthedarkness Posted July 13, 2015 On 7/11/2015 at 12:16 AM, Sashiel said: Reveal hidden contents I think that's a great point, and loops back to the discussion on the podcast. It's a credit to the film that it's possible for different people to have such a range of reactions and interpretations to the same source material. Personally, I don't view Caleb as being worse than Nathan, as I don't think he was hiding his intentions, but is merely a slave to his own organic programming. This is something I can relate to, to a degree. And while I enjoy thinking about the events from Ava's perspective, I can only guess as to what led her to believe leaving Caleb to die was the "right" thing to do. I'm not sure Ava is supposed to have any type of moral compass, actually... at least not one that takes any precedent over her survival instinct. If I could have chosen only one of them to leave the compound alive, however, it would have been Ava, as she was certainly the most interesting and probably the most deserving of the three. Reveal hidden contents Yeah, I think it's not a focus of the film, like Argobot's idea about "white feminism", (edit, this was shorthand, and i think it's an interesting idea and didn't mean to be dismissive by being curt!) but there is context for the idea that she doesn't have traditional morality, or that as something of a blank slate, her earliest memories are of life with no perceived sanctity/value (Nathan's trophy case). One last thing that I thought was really interesting, and in some ways really opened up my love of the movie, which is that the final shot is her going to the crosswalk, then a shot of her face, seemingly blank or unmoved, and leaving. I know very little about philosophy but I took this as some Plato's Allegory of the Cave stuff, which is very similar to the ideas of the Woman in the White Room, particularly since the shot of the cross walk is mostly shadows on the ground, and then her seeing the shadows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclpls Posted July 13, 2015 Wow that's a lot of spoiler tags! Jake I'm pretty sure you won't need to get a PS4 to play No Man's Sky because it is supposed to come out on PC at the same time. Or at least I could have sworn I saw information to that effect during E3. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeusthecat Posted July 14, 2015 I really hope we get the Star Wars Prequel remakes in 2019. And I hope Disney just gives George Lucas full control of all creative decisions. Could he possibly make the movies even worse than they already are? Or would making them worse actually somehow make them better? I'm sad that we'll never know the answer to these questions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tabacco Posted July 14, 2015 On 7/13/2015 at 9:04 PM, sclpls said: Wow that's a lot of spoiler tags! Jake I'm pretty sure you won't need to get a PS4 to play No Man's Sky because it is supposed to come out on PC at the same time. Or at least I could have sworn I saw information to that effect during E3. Yeah, they were previously going to launch on the PS4 first with PC following, but are now saying they'll release together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
malkav11 Posted July 14, 2015 I can totally see why people feel like Gone Girl is problematic, and I would agree in the sense that it presents a character that is villainous in a bunch of unrealistic ways that some people have internalized as actually real problems and it could act to reinforce those ideas. But I do feel like it should be fair game to tell the sorts of stories that it tells, I think the movie's quite well made (I'm a big Fincher fan - I even like Alien 3) and the conclusion is really fucking chilling anyway. On Ex Machina Reveal hidden contents I don't know that I'm entirely convinced Ava set out to kill anyone. She isn't violent towards Nathan initially, despite it having been established that she hates him, and I feel like if he had been willing to give her what she wanted it's possible he might have made it through okay. Instead he sets himself in inarguable opposition and then attacks her. It's only once Kyoko stabs him that she takes the opportunity to get in a blow or two herself, and even then it's not done in a particularly violent or emotionally charged way. (And Kyoko takes a hard blow to the head. I'm not sure what Ava could have done to fix her. It's not like she's a roboticist.) As for Caleb, I didn't get the impression she particularly cared about him one way or the other and his being sealed in the room might easily have just been her failing to consider the consequences of leaving with the only valid keycard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Claire Hosking Posted July 15, 2015 dusted off my old account to talk ex machina Reveal hidden contents The message that jumped out at me was that women "deceive" some men because those men condition and require women to (it seems Ava tricks Caleb because Nathan programmed her to be tricky, which says something about his perceptions of women). Haven't many of us been there, humouring an ordinary peep we're light-years ahead of, because money/power/connections/culture/circumstance made him gatekeeper of something important? Or just because they've cornered you at a party and you wanna get away? I've never been cold enough to be like "I only feigned interest in you b/c you kinda forced my hand there and I resent you using your power to do that" because most dudes don't realise that they do that, only subconciously that a certain pattern of behaviour seems to work, and they never question what's going on in the other person's head. I think the movie is clear that by typical standards, Caleb is a good person, but it also draws attention to how low those standards are, particularly in tech/business culture. He tries to save Ava because of a personal bond, but ignores kyoko, even after he realises she gets upset when Nathan yells at her, realises she's an android and that there's more going on with her than meets the eye, because he doesn't value her. (I don't really fault Ava for not fixing Kyoko tho, it's clear that building these robots is a hugely specialised task.) Nathan's fetishising of Kyoko and asian women reminds me of like, programmers who are really into waifus and anime figurines and that kind of thing, those fetishes just kinda percolate in the culture and maybe this is how a very rich and older dude expresses them. I love how terrible Nathan is at reading Caleb's state of mind. Something that was noticable to me was that Ava gets Caleb's permission to lock him away. She asks him "Will you stay here?" and he says "Yes". So maybe that token consent is enough for her? It's also possible that because she's told that Caleb is a "good" person, and Caleb suggested locking away Nathan, ergo she can lock Caleb away and still be "good". Also, she doesn't technically trap him - his own code does. Of course, he will starve, but Ava was also going to die - how come I, as a viewer, feel so much more sympathy for Caleb getting locked away to die than I did for Ava? Though, I don't fully need to figure out Ava's motivation. To me, the reason that neither Nathan, Caleb or the viewer know what Ava really feels is because that's kinda what oppression does - stops us from having honest relationships with equals, stops us from ever knowing what the people we oppress really think and feel. I don't think Ava is going to murder everyone though. I think the kind of freedom she seeks is more experiential, to see what her senses can feel and abilities can do. I tend to feel like her own desire for self-actualization will go above any impulse she has towards making the world a more just place. Also, the stabbing ending reminds me of Tess of the D'urbervilles. I kinda want to write a comparative essay on stories about men making ideal women/capturing their perfect women and keeping them, and stories of women escaping that kind of thing, because it seems to be a genre that isn't really gender-reversed very much, even in sci-fi or fantasy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sashiel Posted July 15, 2015 That's what I've grown to appreciate about Ex Machina; every time I read another post about it, I feel as if I've learned something new. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted July 15, 2015 That was a great post, thanks for writing it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted July 15, 2015 On 7/15/2015 at 1:48 PM, Claire Hosking said: programmers who are really into waifus and anime figurines and that kind of thing i'm a programmer ;_; Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mangela Lansbury Posted July 15, 2015 On 7/15/2015 at 3:48 PM, Twig said: i'm a programmer ;_; Do you keep your C# reference book by your Saber and Asuka figurines on the shelf by your bed, home of your waifu anime dakimakura (also why do I keep reading programmer and progamer as the other word) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted July 15, 2015 I have a Lupin figure and I think a Luffy and Goku figure. In a box somewhere. Bought cheaply while I was in Japan. I uh do have Vengeful Spirit and Crystal Maiden on my shelf at work, though. Also the damsel from Spelunky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Problem Machine Posted July 15, 2015 Okay which one is your waifu? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Badfinger Posted July 15, 2015 On 7/15/2015 at 5:06 PM, Mangela Lansbury said: (also why do I keep reading programmer and progamer as the other word) Similarly to video (space) games, people who refuse to separate pro and gamer are on the wrong side of history and also really annoy my grammar gland. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eot Posted July 15, 2015 Every time I hear about how Valve are doing right by DotA I get bummed out. Why couldn't they have done the same for CS? I'll get over it some day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twmac Posted July 17, 2015 Do we have the Claire Hosking posting in our forums? I love your stuff if it is, going so far as to quote you in a recent article I wrote: http://www.arcadianrhythms.com/2015/03/gta-v-stop-talking-so-loud-i-can-hear-what-youre-saying/ On the topic of Mario Strikers, I thought it was great and having the Nintendo characters added the personality it needed, but I still think that SEGA Soccer Slam is a better game (made by the same developers). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
