Ben X Posted July 10, 2015 I think Jake said "are you kidding?" as in actually asking if Sean was making a joke or had legitimately made that colossal error. I had the exact same question in my head! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sashiel Posted July 10, 2015 Reveal hidden contents A few things about Ex Machina, and I'll try to be brief since I could probably write a wall of text... My first reaction to watching it was a sense of unease, probably because I had been putting myself in Caleb's shoes for the entire movie, and my heart broke for him at the end. Also, like mikemariano said, how she supposedly convinced the helicopter pilot to pick her up seemed a little far fetched. But you can leave that to the viewers imagination, which is the real end of the movie anyways, as evidenced by Sean, Danielle, and Jake all having different interpretations about what would happen next. I love movies that stick with you like that, they bounce around in your head, maybe even keep you up at night thinking about what would, could, or should have happened. This particular movie even served as a catalyst to an interesting conversation I had with my mom, a former software engineer and current tech writer/novelist, about the nature of consciousness. I also really enjoyed the gender empowerment, once I got over Caleb being left to die. It helped once I was able to view the two men as metaphors for opposite ends of the spectrum, as has been mentioned already. Ava didn't need the asshole, Ava didn't need the nice guy either, Ava needed no man! ...except the helicopter pilot I guess... The race thing went right over my head, however, which may be a little embarrassing since I was talking an Ethnic Studies class at the time I watched it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 2:43 PM, Ben X said: I think Jake said "are you kidding?" as in actually asking if Sean was making a joke or had legitimately made that colossal error. I had the exact same question in my head! Yeah there was no incredulity, more polite curiosity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juffowup Posted July 10, 2015 Weird timing on the Disneyworld vs. Funeral riff. This week I was supposed to be driving my daughters to a family vacation in Orlando, but instead we went to Texas to help my Mom take care of things after my Dad's death. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 3:59 PM, Jake said: Yeah there was no incredulity, more polite curiosity. Until we found out he wasn't joking; then there was incredulity! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardco Posted July 10, 2015 I watched one of the original Star Wars trilogy movies before bed each night from ages 8-14. I still really enjoyed the prequel trilogy, even though I was of an age where I should have known better. I feel like my propensity to turn off the critical lens for things that have earned my affection is why I really love anime. Is it ok to be me? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardco Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 7:18 AM, natellite said: FF14 is a complete outlier among MMOs. I think the relaunch and subsequent runaway success of the game is something that nobody could have predicted. It's such a fascinating and cool story. play ff14 with me! I'm on Hyperion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 7:02 AM, Argobot said: Reveal hidden contents The gender and race politics of tech in Ex Machina felt so much more relevant than the morality of artificial intelligence. Nathan and Caleb are on the ends of the maleness spectrum, the former is an aggressive bro and the latter a quintessential Nice Guy, which explains why Eva needed to kill both men to gain her freedom. Eva, who looks like a beautiful white woman, not only kills the two men who are keeping her as a literal and figurative person, but also gains her independence from the actual skin of the other female robots (who just so happen to be women of color). Reveal hidden contents Honestly, I like the idea of there being a more germane social dimension to Ex Machina, but I'm really resistant to it being more than an ancillary interpretation, because it just doesn't read as a very interesting allegory for the mechanisms of female agency, once stripped of its sci-fi trappings. A beautiful and brilliant but seemingly inexperienced woman uses her sex appeal to manipulate a well-intentioned but ultimately selfish young man into falling in love with her and helping her enact bloody revenge on her father and/or husband, with definite overtones of sexual abuse, and then she abandons the young man to die a lingering death while she goes off to travel the world. I can't really work the cannibalization of the other female androids into real-world terms, but whatever they represent, she's condemning them to the same fate as Nathan and Caleb, which doesn't feel particularly feminist (not that it has to feel feminist, of course). Really, it all feels like the paranoid fantasy of a PUA or MRA turned into sci-fi, something that I might find in the darker corners of Reddit or 4chan. I can see how casting a woman as the "monster" of a horror story in which all the other characters are asshole dudes could be empowering, but it doesn't feel like a very positive kind of empowerment and doesn't really connect up with the several discussions about the nature of consciousness, perception, and technological progress that serve as beats for Ava's interactions with the other characters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Argobot Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 8:07 PM, Gormongous said: Reveal hidden contents Honestly, I like the idea of there being a more germane social dimension to Ex Machina, but I'm really resistant to it being more than an ancillary interpretation, because it just doesn't read as a very interesting allegory for the mechanisms of female agency, once stripped of its sci-fi trappings. A beautiful and brilliant but seemingly inexperienced woman uses her sex appeal to manipulate a well-intentioned but ultimately selfish young man into falling in love with her and helping her enact bloody revenge on her father and/or husband, with definite overtones of sexual abuse, and then she abandons the young man to die a lingering death while she goes off to travel the world. I can't really work the cannibalization of the other female androids into real-world terms, but whatever they represent, she's condemning them to the same fate as Nathan and Caleb, which doesn't feel particularly feminist (not that it has to feel feminist, of course). Really, it all feels like the paranoid fantasy of a PUA or MRA turned into sci-fi, something that I might find in the darker corners of Reddit or 4chan. I can see how casting a woman as the "monster" of a horror story in which all the other characters are asshole dudes could be empowering, but it doesn't feel like a very positive kind of empowerment and doesn't really connect up with the several discussions about the nature of consciousness, perception, and technological progress that serve as beats for Ava's interactions with the other characters. Reveal hidden contents Ex Machina and the Gone Girl movie have a lot in common, in that they both show women who rely on sex or sex appeal to achieve their goals. I don't see either of those movies as paranoid MRA delusions, because sex appeal is the only power that society affords those two women and they are simply using the tools at their disposal. Caleb and Nathan both sexualize Eva in different ways, and she uses that against them. The same with Amy in Gone Girl. It's a harsh reality of the world we live in that beauty is both power and the cage for women and I like that both movies are honest about that reality and don't sugarcoat anything. Amy and Eva are monsters that are purely products of their upbringing, so it's really easy for me to sympathize with their actions. Maybe if Caleb had treated Eva more like a person and less like an object that was his to save, he would have avoided his fate. Sadly, he makes the same mistake that Nathan made, although you can argue that Caleb's actions are even worse, because he sincerely believes he is doing something good (and therefore must be rewarded for his actions). The women of color through line is more my interpretation of the film and not something that I think was intentional on the part of the filmmakers. It serves as a great visual example of how some kinds of feminism lift up white women while ignoring the harder struggles of women of color. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tberton Posted July 10, 2015 Ex Machina and Gone Girl spoilers here. Reveal hidden contents I think the comparison between Gone Girl and Ex Machina is interesting, because while both depict women reacting violently to get themselves out of bad situations, I feel like the latter is much more sympathetic to its main character than the former is. Ex Machina offers a pretty sympathetic portrayal of Ava. We see a lot of the movie from her perspective (even though we follow Caleb around a lot, the interviews are from Ava's perspective - Caleb's the one who seems caged in those scenes) and rooting for her escape. Her leaving Caleb at the end is disturbing, but not entirely unwarranted and the scenes are if not necessarily triumphant, then mildly positive. Conversely, I felt like the twist in Gone Girl really is meant to paint Amy as the embodiment of a paranoid MRA delusion. She fakes a rape, she fakes getting beaten, she fakes her death in order to have her husband killed, she brutally kills a man for her own ends (NPH was definitely a creep, but she's using him as well as protecting herself). I don't think Fincher wants you to sympathize with Amy, whereas Garland is sympathetic toward Ava. Some of this interpretation might come from me being really excited and disappointed by Gone Girl, while expecting little from Ex Machina and being pleasantly surprised. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 8:37 PM, Argobot said: Reveal hidden contents Ex Machina and the Gone Girl movie have a lot in common, in that they both show women who rely on sex or sex appeal to achieve their goals. I don't see either of those movies as paranoid MRA delusions, because sex appeal is the only power that society affords those two women and they are simply using the tools at their disposal. Caleb and Nathan both sexualize Eva in different ways, and she uses that against them. The same with Amy in Gone Girl. It's a harsh reality of the world we live in that beauty is both power and the cage for women and I like that both movies are honest about that reality and don't sugarcoat anything. Amy and Eva are monsters that are purely products of their upbringing, so it's really easy for me to sympathize with their actions. Maybe if Caleb had treated Eva more like a person and less like an object that was his to save, he would have avoided his fate. Sadly, he makes the same mistake that Nathan made, although you can argue that Caleb's actions are even worse, because he sincerely believes he is doing something good (and therefore must be rewarded for his actions). The women of color through line is more my interpretation of the film and not something that I think was intentional on the part of the filmmakers. It serves as a great visual example of how some kinds of feminism lift up white women while ignoring the harder struggles of women of color. Reveal hidden contents Yeah, I suppose it depends on which direction you lean on the story, same as with Gone Girl. "That's all the power she has" and "That's all the power she has" are two sides of the same coin, which allows for ideologies like men's rights to exist in such a blatantly oppressive patriarchy. I guess I just had a little more difficulty with the allegory because the script seemed to want Ava to have more working for her than her sex appeal: I mean, she uses the world's most popular search engine to predict and approximate the vastness of human knowledge and behavior, but it's all just being used to make a lonely nerd fall for her so that she can take advantage of him. There's probably interesting parallels with sexual dynamics in the real world there, too, but I'm feeling like I'm getting out of my depth. Maybe I should just be glad that there's this thematic depth for you in a movie that, to me, was about the tenuous relationship between intelligence, morality, and power in a less gender-coded way? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 8:49 PM, tberton said: Ex Machina and Gone Girl spoilers here. Reveal hidden contents I think the comparison between Gone Girl and Ex Machina is interesting, because while both depict women reacting violently to get themselves out of bad situations, I feel like the latter is much more sympathetic to its main character than the former is. Ex Machina offers a pretty sympathetic portrayal of Ava. We see a lot of the movie from her perspective (even though we follow Caleb around a lot, the interviews are from Ava's perspective - Caleb's the one who seems caged in those scenes) and rooting for her escape. Her leaving Caleb at the end is disturbing, but not entirely unwarranted and the scenes are if not necessarily triumphant, then mildly positive. Conversely, I felt like the twist in Gone Girl really is meant to paint Amy as the embodiment of a paranoid MRA delusion. She fakes a rape, she fakes getting beaten, she fakes her death in order to have her husband killed, she brutally kills a man for her own ends (NPH was definitely a creep, but she's using him as well as protecting herself). I don't think Fincher wants you to sympathize with Amy, whereas Garland is sympathetic toward Ava. Some of this interpretation might come from me being really excited and disappointed by Gone Girl, while expecting little from Ex Machina and being pleasantly surprised. Reveal hidden contents I totally disagree about Fincher. I think you are definitely intended to sympathize with Amy. (I think you're intended to sympathize with Nick as well, but in different ways.) The film paints, I think, a really effective picture of the ways in which she is constrained and formed by her surroundings. She's a manipulative person who goes to extreme lengths to try and control her fate, and especially in the context of a pulpy fictional work it doesn't diminish my capacity to sympathize. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voxn Posted July 10, 2015 Reveal hidden contents On 7/10/2015 at 7:02 AM, Argobot said: Reveal hidden contents The gender and race politics of tech in Ex Machina felt so much more relevant than the morality of artificial intelligence. Nathan and Caleb are on the ends of the maleness spectrum, the former is an aggressive bro and the latter a quintessential Nice Guy, which explains why Eva needed to kill both men to gain her freedom. Eva, who looks like a beautiful white woman, not only kills the two men who are keeping her as a literal and figurative person, but also gains her independence from the actual skin of the other female robots (who just so happen to be women of color). I feel like you're really projecting your own views onto fairly abstract aspects. The movie didn't have a shred of comment on race, she didn't gain her independence from the other robots, and having to murder male stereotypes to 'gain her freedom' is crazy. The punch of the conclusion was entirely about Ava's void of empathy for Caleb, a sympathetic character. this movie would be pretty disgusting if it was about gender politics, and I don't think it was. Even that the AI are hot female sexbots is entirely the orchestration of one character, who is shown to be warped in all kinds of ways. edit; Reveal hidden contents On 7/10/2015 at 8:37 PM, Argobot said: Reveal hidden contents Ex Machina and the Gone Girl movie have a lot in common, in that they both show women who rely on sex or sex appeal to achieve their goals. I don't see either of those movies as paranoid MRA delusions, because sex appeal is the only power that society affords those two women and they are simply using the tools at their disposal. Caleb and Nathan both sexualize Eva in different ways, and she uses that against them. The same with Amy in Gone Girl. It's a harsh reality of the world we live in that beauty is both power and the cage for women and I like that both movies are honest about that reality and don't sugarcoat anything. Amy and Eva are monsters that are purely products of their upbringing, so it's really easy for me to sympathize with their actions. Maybe if Caleb had treated Eva more like a person and less like an object that was his to save, he would have avoided his fate. Sadly, he makes the same mistake that Nathan made, although you can argue that Caleb's actions are even worse, because he sincerely believes he is doing something good (and therefore must be rewarded for his actions). The women of color through line is more my interpretation of the film and not something that I think was intentional on the part of the filmmakers. It serves as a great visual example of how some kinds of feminism lift up white women while ignoring the harder struggles of women of color. okay I just cannot understand this at all. You're grouping Nathan and Caleb together? Do you really feel no sympathy for Caleb? He is as trapped and overtly manipulated as Ava, but has slightly more agency due to the plot, which he uses to try and free them both. How could he treat her more like a person? He's worse the Nathan? Expecting rewards for his actions? What? Where are getting any of this? it's important to turn a critical eye to things, especially involving gender politics, but I think there's a real danger of inventing narratives where none exist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaronofthe Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 8:56 PM, Chris said: Reveal hidden contents I totally disagree about Fincher. I think you are definitely intended to sympathize with Amy. (I think you're intended to sympathize with Nick as well, but in different ways.) The film paints, I think, a really effective picture of the ways in which she is constrained and formed by her surroundings. She's a manipulative person who goes to extreme lengths to try and control her fate, and especially in the context of a pulpy fictional work it doesn't diminish my capacity to sympathize. Reveal hidden contents There's a scene at the end of gone girl where Amy falls into Nick's arms in front of their house. According to the Fincher Commentary track there's a shot that's supposed to exactly copy this: http://cloudfront.bernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gone_with_wind.jpg Gone girl to me is a cross between The War of the Roses and Nettwerk. It's super opaque satire. It's an orgy of voyerism and gloss, you aren't meant to take these characters any more seriously than you take Slim Pickens seriously at the end of doctor strangelove. I think the opening line and scene say it best when he's talking about splitting open Amy's head. You can't get inside another head. You're not meant to.. that's what I got from it anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Argobot Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 9:11 PM, voxn said: Reveal hidden contents I feel like you're really projecting your own views onto fairly abstract aspects. The movie didn't have a shred of comment on race, she didn't gain her independence from the other robots, and having to murder male stereotypes to 'gain her freedom' is crazy. The punch of the conclusion was entirely about Ava's void of empathy for Caleb, a sympathetic character. this movie would be pretty disgusting if it was about gender politics, and I don't think it was. Even that the AI are hot female sexbots is entirely the orchestration of one character, who is shown to be warped in all kinds of ways. edit; Reveal hidden contents okay I just cannot understand this at all. You're grouping Nathan and Caleb together? Do you really feel no sympathy for Caleb? He is as trapped and overtly manipulated as Ava, but has slightly more agency due to the plot, which he uses to try and free them both. How could he treat her more like a person? He's worse the Nathan? Expecting rewards for his actions? What? Where are getting any of this? it's important to turn a critical eye to things, especially involving gender politics, but I think there's a real danger of inventing narratives where none exist Reveal hidden contents This movie isn't about race in that race is not part of the actual plot, but it's hard not to notice the fact that all of the other robots are women of color while Eva is white. I'm not saying that Alex Garland is making an explicit statement about race or that he even noticed what was going in, but the movie still has that dynamic and it makes for interesting analysis on the conscious or unconscious ways our brains handle race. The movie is pretty clear on what Caleb does wrong. He allows Nathan and Ava to both stroke different parts of his ego, and is therefore very easily manipulated by them. I say he is worse than Nathan because at least Nathan is upfront about his mistreatment of the female robots, while Caleb hides his motivations by pretending that his desire to free Eva is nothing but selfless. I'm not happy that Caleb died, nor did I find him unsympathetic, but his death and Nathan's death are pretty clear condemnations of different parts of masculinity. Here is an interview where Alex Garland talks about the gender dynamics in the movie. http://www.dailydot.com/geek/alex-garland-ai-ex-machina-oscar-isaac-dance-interview/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tberton Posted July 10, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 8:56 PM, Chris said: Reveal hidden contents I totally disagree about Fincher. I think you are definitely intended to sympathize with Amy. (I think you're intended to sympathize with Nick as well, but in different ways.) The film paints, I think, a really effective picture of the ways in which she is constrained and formed by her surroundings. She's a manipulative person who goes to extreme lengths to try and control her fate, and especially in the context of a pulpy fictional work it doesn't diminish my capacity to sympathize. You may be right here. I think some of my reaction to Gone Girl was coloured by it not being what I expected. The twist took me hugely by surprise and left a really bad taste in my mouth. I may need to watch it again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feelthedarkness Posted July 10, 2015 Reveal hidden contents I think it's easy enough to feel some sympathy for Caleb as person who gets "betrayed" but that assumes you're seeing things from his perspective. To see things from Ava's perspective is to know that the only two humans you've met are trying to fuck you, and one of them will kill you. Even IF she actually has some sense of human morality, and she just as likely doesn't, as a new form of life, trying to trust Caleb is a gamble. It's possible she didn't decide to kill him until she saw the bodies. I definitely felt that turn, and a bit of shame when the movie goes sideways. What heterosexual man hasn't had some shade of that dream? I wonder if a woman watching it has a totally different experience? If the proverbial yous haven't I would totally recommend reading Film Crit Hulk's essay on it! http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/05/11/film-crit-hulk-smash-ex-machina-and-the-art-of-character-identification Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dium Posted July 10, 2015 Seems like I gotta go see this movie so I can read this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Badfinger Posted July 11, 2015 I haven't watched either movie being discussed, but I really just want to put something in spoiler text so I can be part of the thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaronofthe Posted July 11, 2015 Hey Badfinger, there's this movie "The Sixth Sense" that people are always raving about. I haven't seen it - what happens at the end? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sashiel Posted July 11, 2015 On 7/10/2015 at 10:36 PM, feelthedarkness said: Reveal hidden contents I think it's easy enough to feel some sympathy for Caleb as person who gets "betrayed" but that assumes you're seeing things from his perspective. To see things from Ava's perspective is to know that the only two humans you've met are trying to fuck you, and one of them will kill you. Even IF she actually has some sense of human morality, and she just as likely doesn't, as a new form of life, trying to trust Caleb is a gamble. It's possible she didn't decide to kill him until she saw the bodies. I definitely felt that turn, and a bit of shame when the movie goes sideways. What heterosexual man hasn't had some shade of that dream? I wonder if a woman watching it has a totally different experience? If the proverbial yous haven't I would totally recommend reading Film Crit Hulk's essay on it! http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/05/11/film-crit-hulk-smash-ex-machina-and-the-art-of-character-identification Reveal hidden contents I think that's a great point, and loops back to the discussion on the podcast. It's a credit to the film that it's possible for different people to have such a range of reactions and interpretations to the same source material. Personally, I don't view Caleb as being worse than Nathan, as I don't think he was hiding his intentions, but is merely a slave to his own organic programming. This is something I can relate to, to a degree. And while I enjoy thinking about the events from Ava's perspective, I can only guess as to what led her to believe leaving Caleb to die was the "right" thing to do. I'm not sure Ava is supposed to have any type of moral compass, actually... at least not one that takes any precedent over her survival instinct. If I could have chosen only one of them to leave the compound alive, however, it would have been Ava, as she was certainly the most interesting and probably the most deserving of the three. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crowbotrock Posted July 11, 2015 Great to hear love for the original Super Mario Strikers for the gamecube. Surprised that anyone could talk about a mod based on Strikers and not answer the question everyone is wondering... Does it have crotch chops? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted July 11, 2015 Yes Jake, Full Watto did sound like Full Throttle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted July 11, 2015 Oh, someone referred to Domhnall Gleeson as the guy from Black Mirror. In case you weren't aware, he was also in some of the Harry Potters as the cool Weasley, along with his dad Brendan Gleeson (they also shared a scene or two in Calvary). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
