SuperBiasedMan Posted September 12, 2015 Undertale is coming out in a couple days and I never got round to posting about it before. It has a demo on the page I linked above, the demo seems to work pretty well as a solid prologue to the rest of the game. I wont say much of the story because I don't entirely remember the premise there but I definitely enjoyed the treatment. This is even mildly spoilery for the experience of the game, so only read it if you need proper convincing: Reveal hidden contents The gameplay is really interesting. It's standard RPG fare for the most part. When you're being attacked you maneuver around to dodge the enemy's attacks. But you can also find ways of not fighting the enemies in the game, whether the enemies are passive or aggressive, there seem to always be ways of avoiding violence. Either the enemy leaves after a period, you dissuade them or even calm them down. I'm particularly interested that this gameplay quirk was actually impacting upon how the demo ends, so it's clearly something the developer is interested in focusing on. So I'm super curious to see how it plays out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted September 12, 2015 I backed this and now I finally get to play it yay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n490 Posted September 14, 2015 When he announced that it would be released at noon, Toby Fox asked on Twitter not to stay up all night playing it. My SO and I both have the day off on Wednesday. We're sorry Toby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted September 18, 2015 Reveal hidden contents I was desolated after killing Toriel so I reloaded to see if I could save her and.... The game KNEW WHAT I DID! Wanna hear some cool snail facts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick R Posted September 18, 2015 I really liked the demo for this. It made me feel like the protagonist in Spirited Away or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted September 19, 2015 I'm kinda angry that not that many people here are talking about this amazing game... T_T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 19, 2015 I have a lot of stuff to say but I'm on my phone right now. After dinner I'm gonna splurge my thoughts on here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted September 19, 2015 I don't even know what to say, this is the most amazing experience ever, I've never laughed as much, cried as much, been as uncomfortable or angry! Reveal hidden contents I swore like a sailor when Flowery appeared in the true ending... I never swear... XP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 19, 2015 I'm about 2/3 hours in, which I think is halfway? This is so damn good. I like having a game that is actually funny, supports their mechanical system with a justified narrative and at the same time that system feeds into giving the narrative meaning. When a game actually manages to make you think your choices have meaning it's done the job well. But honestly so few games actually do that. I have a minorly spoilerly example from the third area in the game Reveal hidden contents I got a phone call from Papyrus asking what I was wearing, and at the time I had the old tutu on so I told him that. Then it became clear he had asked in order to tell Undyne. He then called me back to 'subtley' tell me I should change clothes so that Undyne wouldn't come after me. I immediately did, and then it occurred to me that I actually was into the game enough that I thought changing my clothes meant something, whether or not the mechanics would change I actually thought "Oh, he's right I ought to do that." I live for these moments. What way did you play Tanukitsune? Reveal hidden contents Since I'd already played the demo, I knew to try stay unviolent. I've done well so far I think. Sometimes I'm unsure if stuff like stealing the ice caps' hats is counted as violent but it doesn't seem like it. Also I went on a date with Papyrus and it was really fun. He's a great character that seemed at first like he would've been a bit of a dull cliché. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninety-Three Posted September 19, 2015 I played the demo, and I noticed that the final fight was impossible to lose, although it tries to hide it. Your damage magically increases at the end, as your health drops, you take progressively less damage, and at very low health bullets run away from you (I tried, I couldn't get hit at 1 life). It feels like this wasn't acknowledged by the narrative at all: Reveal hidden contents "You're stronger than I expected" Toriel says after clearly throwing the fight. In a game that's willing to break the fourth wall by recognizing saveloads, I was surprised to see it engage in such blatant cheating and then try to act like it hadn't cheated. Then I replayed the beginning of the demo and it turns out that Flowey's death circle is scripted to vanish when it's about to hit you: if you run to the middle it will close in almost all the way then vanish, but if you hug a wall it vanishes much earlier. Now I'm wondering if any of the fights were losable, was the game cheating the whole time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 19, 2015 On 9/19/2015 at 10:12 PM, Ninety-Three said: Reveal hidden contents "You're stronger than I expected" Toriel says after clearly throwing the fight. In a game that's willing to break the fourth wall by recognizing saveloads, I was surprised to see it engage in such blatant cheating and then try to act like it hadn't cheated. Reveal hidden contents The point was that she wanted to fight you but knew she couldn't actually kill you so even when pretending she just held back her attacks. When she calls you strong I think it's supposed to mean that you were strong enough to not engage in the fight with her since that's a central theme of the game. Though I don't know how you played it, so I don't know if she says that if you actually kill her. I guess in that case she could say the same thing and be surprised you were strong enough to fight and kill. I've played further and died other places just fine without it saving me, I think the tutorial zone is just meant to be forgiving while you work out the mechanics with Flowy. And I think the latter case is purely for story reasons. It's funny you call it cheating, because it's the game making it easier for you, not screwing you over. Usually people think of cheating as taking the advantage from them. Though if you wanted a hard experience I could see it being cheaty feeling. I don't think it's a super hard game, even if I died a few times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninety-Three Posted September 19, 2015 On 9/19/2015 at 10:27 PM, SuperBiasedMan said: Reveal hidden contents The point was that she wanted to fight you but knew she couldn't actually kill you so even when pretending she just held back her attacks. When she calls you strong I think it's supposed to mean that you were strong enough to not engage in the fight with her since that's a central theme of the game. Though I don't know how you played it, so I don't know if she says that if you actually kill her. I guess in that case she could say the same thing and be surprised you were strong enough to fight and kill. Reveal hidden contents I killed her, but not before she put me to 1 life and started transparently pulling her punches, which completely ruined the "stronger than I expected" line. I don't think it is for story reasons because it doesn't make sense as a story. I was fairly certain it was just done because they didn't want the player to die, reload and try again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 19, 2015 On 9/19/2015 at 10:54 PM, Ninety-Three said: I don't think it is for story reasons because it doesn't make sense as a story. I was fairly certain it was just done because they didn't want the player to die, reload and try again. If this is what you think then you wouldn't like the full game I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted September 20, 2015 On 9/19/2015 at 5:19 PM, Tanukitsune said: I'm kinda angry that not that many people here are talking about this amazing game... T_T Y'all have totally convinced me to play it, it sounds amazing. I'm just trying not to buy any new games right now. There's easily a half dozen games that have come out in the last couple of months that I've skipped because I'm on a buying moratorium. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 21, 2015 Ungh. I finished it last night. It was so good. The ending dragged much more than I expected, I actually made stayed up later than I should have as a result... but it really comes together. I'm curious how divergent the possibilities are. I kinda want to try playing through where I (super ending spoilers) Reveal hidden contents indiscriminately kill the monsters and am a 'bad kid'. Because this run involved no killing at all. I tried to spare Asgore. I spared Flowy too, both times. I am quite certain this was the 'entirely good' ending. Though I think it overlaps with a bittersweet ending, because I did get a fake out ending at first that seemed semi conclusive, if disheartening. I would like to know if the game will allow you to do otherwise, will the outcome skew in largely the same direction or is there minor divergence at the end? I'll probably just scour youtube for ending compilation videos after I do a bad kid run but I know my brother played this so we're going to go in deep on figuring out what the other person did. I'm so pleased though. The game delivers so well on the central theme of it. Both mechanically and storywise. And it is legitimately a theme I've seen as woefully absent from games (at least... in the sense that no-one had tackled it and done a consistent satisfactory job). More detail, super spoilery Reveal hidden contents I've been thinking about it a lot. It's just so well done that the game portrays so many different reasons to fight. Both in the bosses and the random encounters. They all have viable reasons to fight you, but the game highlights that there are always reasons not to fight too, and that often extending some level of understanding or respect will allow you to circumvent any fighting. Undyne was one of the better ones in that regard. She's shown as this huge knight that's incredibly powerful and pursues you relentlessly. She doesn't even seem human. When she takes off her helmet it's quite a difference to think there's a person under there, as I almost thought that she was a possessed set of armor. She also reveals in her fight how important it is to everyone she knows that you're defeated. The monsters aren't ruthless aggressors, they're oppressed and lost. Fighting you to take your SOUL is the easiest way to improve the lives of all monsters, but in the end you deter her because you connect and force her to see you as a person and not an obstacle, exactly how I'd been acting for the entire game up to that point. So good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted September 21, 2015 Reveal hidden contents From what Flowery hints at and what I've heard, the really bad ending is about ending it all literally, as it making the game no longer playable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 21, 2015 On 9/21/2015 at 12:29 PM, Tanukitsune said: Reveal hidden contents From what Flowery hints at and what I've heard, the really bad ending is about ending it all literally, as it making the game no longer playable. Reveal hidden contents Quite possibly. I'm kinda also curious though because there's lot of stuff that depends upon the characters. If I fight and beat Papyrus, what happens then with Sans. What happens if I just leave Undyne lying there? Will they still exist as antagonistic forces? How does Alphys react at that point. It really seems like it'd be a different game if I played that way. I agree about the ending though, it's likely that either you or Flowy destroy the 'world' of the game. Also one thing I didn't get much context on. Do you have a family? At the end you can choose to stay with Toriel. But that choice is a bit odd since your character has no known background or connection to others that would complicate that choice. EDIT: Reveal hidden contents Oh wow, I just loaded the game out of curiosity and Flowy was there pleading with me not to reset the game and start a new run. He said that since everyone's happy now I should leave things as they are, and not pull everyone back to the start. This game. I might write more about this later but the spoilered edit above reminds me of how much I enjoy when games can do a good job of abstracting away from meaning for the sake of creating the intended experience. The battle system in this doesn't make a lot of literal sense, much like any game mechanic. And this game does a good job of disregarding a sense of physical reality for the sake of get across the feelings and message they need. Particularly with things like the above case, and just the very notion that you fight by moving a little heart around and avoiding enemy attacks while trying to intuit how to placate the enemy. Narratively all that matters is that you're doing a difficult task that you can just about overcome with enough determination. The literal reality of what you do isn't important. And this game extends that in small plot points that work better than you'd expect when reading it on paper. EDITEDIT: Also this game was actually quite hard,* kinda surprised by that though it fits thematically. I expected it to be more easy to be cutesy, but that's not what this game is really trying to do ultimately. * Hard as someone who played a pacifist, may be different otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dewar Posted September 21, 2015 So, second hand information by way of a friend of my wife's, but apparently if you get a bad enough ending you ruin the world and it won't let you start a new game anymore? And then if you eventually find your save file and delete it, steam cloud re-downloads the bad save and you're stuck again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 21, 2015 On 9/21/2015 at 4:17 PM, Dewar said: So, second hand information by way of a friend of my wife's, but apparently if you get a bad enough ending you ruin the world and it won't let you start a new game anymore? And then if you eventually find your save file and delete it, steam cloud re-downloads the bad save and you're stuck again? One of my endings involved a hard reset that corrupted my save within the fiction of the game and made me progress through some stuff until a point at which it returned to 'normal', so that might be what's happening here. To be honest I could possibly imagine this game actually doing what you're afraid of though. If it is persistent, you could buy directly from his site for the Humble download link since I presume not using cloud saves will allow you to just manually remove your save. Also of course, you should always try buy from the creator's own site since they get more money that way (and they usually offer steam keys with that purchase as well). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 22, 2015 I've been thinking and googling about this more, it's in my brain. I have found out about that corrupting end game you mentioned Dewar. It does exist but would be very hard to get accidentally. A mild experiential spoiler: Reveal hidden contents It comes from playing the game the whole way through, killing everything. Including grinding against NPCs for so long that there are none left. This is a special run of the game and is very hard. It's not entirely an irrevocable game breaking thing, but it does have a significant effect on future playing. I wont say any more. Other thing I discovered when replaying a bit. (super deep spoiler involving a less primary character) Reveal hidden contents Metaton is actually a monster put into a robot by Alphys. Probably not that surprising, it was strongly hinted. BUT if you buy the key from Bratty and Catty, you can go to the house next to Napstablooks and find a bunch of diaries from someone. When you read them, it turns out that was the person that Alphys put into Metaton, because she always wanted to have a humanoid body. Now my pondering is. Isn't Metaton referred to as male in the game? I'm thinking that might mean Metaton's transformation is an odd trans allegory? I might be reaching since I don't remember what pronouns were used but the diary entries suggested a very minor resonance with trans ideas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted September 22, 2015 Reveal hidden contents Damn, I could have afforded that key if I hadn't given all my money to Muffet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vorlonesque Posted September 24, 2015 This game reminds me of a dream I had as a little kid (I was maybe 3 or 4 at the time...its one of my earlier memories and it would have been before I was in school). Like many kids I was afraid of monsters...and in the dream/nightmare monsters were in my house and wondering around so I decided to scare them before they could get me...and I think I scared them with a toy raygun or something...or maybe a flashlight and then I ended up talking to them and they weren't so bad once I got to know them...they just looked scary and if I remember correctly robbed banks or drove through red lights or something that little kid me would have seen as bad behavior that didn't really impact me. The monsters actually looked like they could have escaped from Jabba's palace or whatever which would have been pretty strong in my mind as RotJ was probably the first movie I saw in a theatre that I can remember and I would have been 3 at the time and Jabba scared the fuck out of 3 year old me). For some reason I imagine this game as reasoning with the monsters that live under your bed and it turns out they're not so bad and that really makes me want to play it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted September 24, 2015 On 9/24/2015 at 6:13 AM, Vorlonesque said: For some reason I imagine this game as reasoning with the monsters that live under your bed and it turns out they're not so bad and that really makes me want to play it. Yes, that's definitely what it's going for. Maybe they had a marketing campaign that extended back years and into dreams? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
root Posted October 2, 2015 I just started playing last night and I haven't gotten far so I don't really have a whole lot to contribute just yet but my visit with Toriel gave me a case of the Emotions. I'm not like super super into the visual style of the game at all, but I understand that it is the work of one dude and pixel art is kind of a thing in indie games where you need to manage the scope of the project. And anyway, a compelling story covereth a multitude of sins. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted October 2, 2015 This is the art you don't like? As far as I know, many cartoonists at least help with the design part of the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
