The Idle Book Club 19: What We Talk About When We Talk About Love

[Argobot]

The Idle Book Club 19:

What We Talk About When We Talk About Love

What DO we talk about when we talk about love? Whatever it is, from Raymond Carver's point of view, it's not very rosy. Join Sarah and Chris as they discuss this classic collection of particularly short stories. Sorry for the delay!

What We Talk About When We Talk About Love

• Listen on the Episode Page
• Listen on Soundcloud
• Listen in iTunes

[MarkHoog]

Looking forward to this episode, since I really enjoyed the stories in this collection. Having said that, I would recommend reading the story 'A Small Good Thing' after having read 'The Bath'. The first, featured in Carver's excellent collection 'Cathedral', is kind of an extended remake of the latter, which is in WWTAWWTAL. It's a nice showcase of Carver's evolution as a writer, and I confess ASGT brought me to tears. I won't spoil the differences between the two, but I've googled for it and you can read the entire story online. 

 

Kind regards,

Mark

[Lechimp]

Looking forward to this episode, since I really enjoyed the stories in this collection. Having said that, I would recommend reading the story 'A Small Good Thing' after having read 'The Bath'. The first, featured in Carver's excellent collection 'Cathedral', is kind of an extended remake of the latter, which is in WWTAWWTAL. It's a nice showcase of Carver's evolution as a writer, and I confess ASGT brought me to tears. I won't spoil the differences between the two, but I've googled for it and you can read the entire story online. 

 

Kind regards,

Mark

 

Is Cathedral what you would recommend reading next if people enjoyed this book? I don't know a whole lot about him but really enjoyed this book and want to read more.

[WickedCestus]

This was the second book I've read in the What We Talk About When We Talk About series. Murakami's What I Talk About When I Talk About Running was my first, and so far my favourite. I have yet to read  What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank, What We Talk About When We Talk About God, What We Talk About When We Talk About War, What We Talk About When We Talk About Birth, What We Talk About When We Talk About Hip Hop, What We Talk About When We Talk About The Tube, What We Talk About When We Talk About Cancer, What We Talk About When We Talk About Breaking In A Virgin (????), What We Talk About When We Talk About Brazilian multinationals, What We Talk About When We Talk About Punk, What We Talk About When We Talk About Creative Writing, What We Talk About When We Talk About Clone Club, What We Talk About When We Talk About Food, What We Talk About When We Talk About Ralph Sampson, What We Talk About When We Talk About Death, Money and Heart (I guess this one's a collection?), What We Talk About When We Talk About Revolution, What We Talk About When We Talk About Alan, What We Talk About When We Talk About leadership, and What We Talk About When We Talk About Movement: A very short introduction of the Feldenkrais Method. (All of these books exist according to Goodreads).

 

Seriously though, I had a lot of trouble enjoying this book. Maybe it's partially fatigue after coming out of an American Lit course where at a certain point I started to say, "If I read one more short story about a white man that ends with him realizing/not realizing he's a complete asshole, I'm going to scream". Short stories generally have fairly open endings, but I thought Carver's stories take this to a new extreme. I found the endings absolutely unsatisfying in this collection. My only point of comparison for Carver is the story Cathedral, which, as I just mentioned, made me scream, but I was at least glad that it decided to have an ending. The stories in this book end with parting sentences that always feel slightly too cute for my liking. I'm always left thinking, "well, Raymond, you thought that was cool, didn't you". 

 

I was actually kind of mad at this book when I finished it, but I've cooled off after thinking about it for a few days and reading a bit more about it. I think most of my dislike comes from the perpetuation of the idea that this Hemingway-inspired "simple is best" style of storytelling is the best/only style. After taking some creative writing courses, I'm maybe slightly bitter about the one dude in every class who feels the need to talk about Hemingway every ten minutes to remind us that yeah Hemingway still exists, and also is the only guy who ever wrote anything any good. I just find this style extremely boring. I had this same problem with Philip K. Dick as well; I just find it too plain for its own good. It's super readable, but it just leads to me just barreling through the book in about a day while thinking to myself every thirty minutes, "wow, I don't care about anything I just read". I think I'm going to have to lump Carver in with Hemingway and Bukowski in my "classics that I just don't get" category. I'm very much the kind of person who emphasizes the style of writing over most other things, so that might explain it. 

 

The stories are so short that I never felt like any of the characters had time to distinguish themselves. The characters all seem to have only one defining personality trait, which is "they're being mean right now". My favourite story in the collection, "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love", was the only one that gave the characters any time to breathe. I enjoyed listening to their back and forth, and their personalities and relationships were effectively communicated indirectly. That story gave me a brief glimpse of what this style of storytelling could do, but I don't think any of the others capitalized in the same way. 

 

Anyway, I hope you guys disagree with me, because it's always super interesting to hear everyone's positive takes on books that don't click for me! The episode on Man In The High Castle made me think a bit differently about that book, which I disliked initially, although it only managed to turn my strong dislike into a mild dislike. That's still something though! 

 

Looking forward to the podcast!

[marginalgloss]

I don’t think I’ll have time to read this before the podcast, but I’m interested to hear what you guys made of this book. I’ve read a good deal of Raymond Carver before, partly at university and partly in my own time, and my opinion of his work has always been pretty high, but he’s never been a writer close to my heart. 

 

As with WickedCestus, I have a pretty severe distrust of the ‘emotional minimalism’ that has (fairly or unfairly) come to be associated with writers like Carver. It’s worth talking about the way in which he’s become a poster boy for ‘flawless’ prose in creative writing classes everywhere. I wonder if his writing carries that kind of confidence itself. Are these stories which, in some way, believe themselves to be perfect? To put it another way, is it the author, or is it the way we talk about authors, that makes them seem exemplary?

 

(‘Short Cuts’ was a good movie, though.)

[gregbrown]

To further complicate things, much of the emotional minimalism people associate with Carver was actually a result of Lish's ruthless editing.

[MarkHoog]

Is Cathedral what you would recommend reading next if people enjoyed this book? I don't know a whole lot about him but really enjoyed this book and want to read more.

 

It might be a matter of taste, MechaTofuPirate, but in my experience Cathedral was the superior collection - it had more heart. So yes, if you enjoyed WWTA I would definitely recommend Cathedral!

 

On a side note, if you like Carver, you might also enjoy the short stories of John Cheever. His The Swimmer is one of my favourite stories of all time.

[Chris]

Episode is (finally) up!

 

To further complicate things, much of the emotional minimalism people associate with Carver was actually a result of Lish's ruthless editing.

 

Ah, crap! I had read this years ago and then entirely forgot to raise it. (Although we probably aren't the right people to discuss it anyway, as total newcomers to the author.)

[WickedCestus]

I totally agree with what Sarah was saying RE: the gender politics of the stories in this collection. I guess the simplest way of putting it is that I got a "boys will be boys" sorta feeling. Like, men are inherently more self-destructive and violent, but "hey, that's just the way we are!", and therefore male-female relationships are frictional and doomed. I'll admit, I'm young (21) and very naive, but I just found that perspective turned me off, and combined with the stuff I mentioned previously about the writing style, put me off the book relatively quickly.

 

That being said, as I expected, listening to the podcast (and having more time to cool and reflect) definitely has given me more of an appreciation of the stories. You made a lot of great points in this episode, and I was able to see the beauty of some of the stories by looking at them through your eyes instead of my own, which I guess is the idea of this sort of podcast! So thanks for that. While I still don't think I'll go on to read more of Carver, I can at least say "hey, I understand what that guy does, and I understand why it doesn't work for me but works for others". 

 

Love the pod! Really excited for next month's book; I've been meaning to read that one for a while. 

[marginalgloss]

Great podcast — I too have been meaning to read ‘I Love Dick’, so I’m looking forward to finally getting around to that. 

 

On a related note, I was reading today this essay by Amit Chaudhuri, which addresses the issue of verbal complexity and how literature once trended towards minimalism — he cites Carver in this regard, and the long shadow of Gordon Lish over his work — but is now swerving back towards complexity and difficulty in novels. The semicolon is permissible once again, etc.

 

It’s worth a look, although the title is really bad, and don’t let the Big Bang Theory comparison put you off. His points regarding the modern novel are well made, but I’m not entirely convinced that trends in television are comparable. I mean, is Bones really all that? And come on: Sheldon is no Professor Pnin.

 

But that said: top marks to this guy in the comments.

[Dragonfliet]

Episode is (finally) up!

  

Ah, crap! I had read this years ago and then entirely forgot to raise it. (Although we probably aren't the right people to discuss it anyway, as total newcomers to the author.)

 

As was pointed out above by MarkHoog, I would LOVE for you two to discuss "A Small, Good Thing." This would be a perfect little bonus episode. It's literally the same story as "The Bath" but so dramatically longer that the mood is completely and utterly different. It's really wonderful to compare the two, and a worthy example of how what is cut dramatically affects the story. They are both great stories, but they come across so very different because of the cuts. You can find it in Carver's collection Cathedral (which is outstanding), or you can find it in pdf easily enough.

 

As a writer, I hate the idea of Lish's changes, coming, as they did, as an oppressive dictation, but they're so damned good. I often still prefer the Carver versions, as they are kinder and more mellow, but the tenseness in the Lish versions is really powerful.