Professor Video Games Posted January 19, 2016 I liked Jessica Jones a lot at the start, but towards the end it really lost me. Characters did things that seemed totally irrational just to keep the plot going (which itself got kinda nuts), the action got too over the top, and it got increasingly lore heavy. Not to say the show was bad...most of my complaints are a matter of personal taste, but after watching the first few episodes I was really into it, so the directions it went bummed me out. And I'm still curious to see what they do for season 2, because the villain in S1 was legit terrifying and will be tough to top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 7:06 PM, video games said: Characters did things that seemed totally irrational just to keep the plot going (which itself got kinda nuts)... Eesh. I haven't had time to watch Jessica Jones myself, but the mere existence of this complaint makes me less like to find that time. Nothing turns me off of a show worse than characters acting against their best interests and motivations in order to keep the otherwise natural conclusion of the plot from happening prematurely. Sons of Anarchy had this in spades and, when the latest incarnation of it became the centerpiece of a season finale, I turned the show off and never looked back. A subset of that issue is the refusal to kill off an antagonist who has naturally come to a position where it makes sense for them to be killed, either by the characters and by circumstances, because the writers want to keep them around for future plotlines. That's how The Walking Dead lost me. I guess I just have no patience for TV writers sacrificing the quality of a script in order to hedge their bets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor Video Games Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 7:17 PM, Gormongous said: A subset of that issue is the refusal to kill off an antagonist who has naturally come to a position where it makes sense for them to be killed, either by the characters and by circumstances, because the writers want to keep them around for future plotlines. Yeah you might have some problems with Jessica Jones then... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 7:22 PM, video games said: Yeah you might have some problems with Jessica Jones then... On the one hand, I agree with you, but on the other, there are reasons for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted January 19, 2016 Kilgrave might be the most frightening super villain I've ever seen depicted in movie or television. He was unnerving to a spectacular degree. Oh, and I'm pretty sure the season 2 villain was already established, if you think about it. That's if S2 happens, apparently there's going to be a super group miniseries of the Netflix heroes as well, and the timing of that shoot may interfere with a Jones season 2 anytime in the near future. I did feel like the show got very...heavy in the back third. But for me, it was more because that's when the really bad shit just started piling one on top of the other. Action wise, I was fine with that, you've got several characters who have established powers, and none of them had really been able to fully unholster those. Spoilering some thoughts on the action. Reveal hidden contents The only real two set-piece fights are Cage v Jones, which was the only chance to show what each was capable of, mostly because if they had teed off on anyone else at full strength that person would be dead on the first blow (as had been demonstrated already). The other fight of Simpson v Jones/Trish was interesting to me because of the cooperative/tag team element of Jones and Trish putting him down. It allowed, in a different way, for Trish to show some things about herself that hadn't been demonstrated before. On 1/19/2016 at 7:06 PM, video games said: Characters did things that seemed totally irrational just to keep the plot going (which itself got kinda nuts) My characterization of this is mostly that I thought I saw solutions to problems that the characters didn't consider, and in some cases fairly obvious solutions. And a lack of paranoia at times. Like, fuck, the entire back half of the show should have had way more paranoia going on than was demonstrated. Paranoia was a completely rational response that people didn't use enough. At least two characters deal with some pretty heavy consequences because they should have been more paranoid given what they knew. Beyond paranoia though, I'm trying to think about what actions I would have called irrational or out of character though. Simpson, maybe, but there are big loose, blank dangly threads about why he does some of what he does. Everyone else though I felt like the actions they took could be pretty easily forecast by their past behavior. edited to add: Oh, unless you're talking about... Reveal hidden contents Hogarth setting Kilgrave free. That one seems batshit crazy, but for someone as arrogant as Hogarth, who views herself as a master manipulator, I think it's believable she thought she could reach a deal with Kilgrave. The other possibility is why didn't Jessica just kill Kilgrave earlier. I really don't think she had it in her to kill someone yet. Killing Cage's wife devastated her, like broke something inside her bad. I don't think she was capable of killing him until she did. On 1/19/2016 at 7:17 PM, Gormongous said: Eesh. I haven't had time to watch Jessica Jones myself, but the mere existence of this complaint makes me less like to find that time. Nothing turns me off of a show worse than characters acting against their best interests and motivations in order to keep the otherwise natural conclusion of the plot from happening prematurely. Sons of Anarchy had this in spades and, when the latest incarnation of it became the centerpiece of a season finale, I turned the show off and never looked back. A subset of that issue is the refusal to kill off an antagonist who has naturally come to a position where it makes sense for them to be killed, either by the characters and by circumstances, because the writers want to keep them around for future plotlines. That's how The Walking Dead lost me. I guess I just have no patience for TV writers sacrificing the quality of a script in order to hedge their bets. I don't want to spoil anything, but if you like the Marvel universe thingy at all, I'd rate Jones as a must watch element of it, for going against the grain of so many of the other stories in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor Video Games Posted January 19, 2016 I'll just spoiler talk it up (sorry Gorm) Reveal hidden contents Definitely the moment where Hogarth frees Killgrave. She may be arrogant, but she's also not stupid. She knows what he's capable of and letting him out is insane. I get why Jessica couldn't kill Kilgrave, but I don't remember Simpson or Trish putting up much of a fight over it and realistically, how are you gonna get a legit confession that's admissible out of that guy? A taped confession in some sort of torture cell will probably not hold up in court And obviously if you put him in a courtroom he'll just talk his way out of it. Simpson especially should have talked some sense into her (or just ignored her and killed him himself...he's certainly got it in him). In general their plans never seemed very well thought out for characters that are otherwise pretty with it. The fight I didn't like is the Trish/Simpson/Jessica one. Jessica can still kill with one hit right? I know those pills give you an adrenaline boost or whatever, but he shouldn't be surviving being thrown through walls or whatever other crazy damage she deals in that fight. It just all seemed like too much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 8:35 PM, video games said: I'll just spoiler talk it up (sorry Gorm) Reveal hidden contents Definitely the moment where Hogarth frees Killgrave. She may be arrogant, but she's also not stupid. She knows what he's capable of and letting him out is insane. I get why Jessica couldn't kill Kilgrave, but I don't remember Simpson or Trish putting up much of a fight over it and realistically, how are you gonna get a legit confession that's admissible out of that guy? A taped confession in some sort of torture cell will probably not hold up in court And obviously if you put him in a courtroom he'll just talk his way out of it. Simpson especially should have talked some sense into her (or just ignored her and killed him himself...he's certainly got it in him). In general their plans never seemed very well thought out for characters that are otherwise pretty with it. The fight I didn't like is the Trish/Simpson/Jessica one. Jessica can still kill with one hit right? I know those pills give you an adrenaline boost or whatever, but he shouldn't be surviving being thrown through walls or whatever other crazy damage she deals in that fight. It just all seemed like too much. Spoilers ho! (sorry also gorm) Reveal hidden contents Yeah, I can totally understand Hogarth being a breaking point for someone. Wasn't for me, but I can see that. Simpson is being setup to most likely be Nuke, a cyborg super soldier with additional implants not just his drugs (like he's got a second heart to make him harder to kill and facilitate rapid blood flow to distribute oxygen and drugs faster). If it was just the drugs, I'd agree with you, but his ability to take the beating likely does make sense if they continue to develop him. That's also why he likely survived the explosion that his buddies died in. It's silly convenient that the cop sent to kill Trish randomly happens to be Nuke, but that kind of convenience is rampant in Marvel. Like running into the Nurse in the final two episodes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor Video Games Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 8:42 PM, Bjorn said: Spoilers ho! (sorry also gorm) Reveal hidden contents Yeah, I can totally understand Hogarth being a breaking point for someone. Wasn't for me, but I can see that. Simpson is being setup to most likely be Nuke, a cyborg super soldier with additional implants not just his drugs (like he's got a second heart to make him harder to kill and facilitate rapid blood flow to distribute oxygen and drugs faster). If it was just the drugs, I'd agree with you, but his ability to take the beating likely does make sense if they continue to develop him. That's also why he likely survived the explosion that his buddies died in. It's silly convenient that the cop sent to kill Trish randomly happens to be Nuke, but that kind of convenience is rampant in Marvel. Like running into the Nurse in the final two episodes. Reveal hidden contents Yeah see I don't know who Nuke is and the result is me just feeling confused. Maybe it's the fact that Jessica doesn't seem puzzled at all that he's so tough. It probably irks me more than it should because I really dislike the whole Marvel Cinematic Universe thing and it's need to connect everyone and everything together, but I know I just have to deal with it sometimes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninety-Three Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 8:35 PM, video games said: Reveal hidden contents I get why Jessica couldn't kill Kilgrave, but I don't remember Simpson or Trish putting up much of a fight over it and realistically, how are you gonna get a legit confession that's admissible out of that guy? A taped confession in some sort of torture cell will probably not hold up in court And obviously if you put him in a courtroom he'll just talk his way out of it. Reveal hidden contents That was why it bothered me so much that Jessica wouldn't kill him, her plan had an obvious hole in it, and the plot just didn't address that at all. What, are we supposed to believe that no one involved in the plan noticed this problem? Also, Jessica's strong enough to kill people? Then what was up with the scene where they kidnap Kilgrave, his thugs come after them, Jessica fights them, and she loses because they keep getting up and fighting after she hits them? She fought like every human-level martial artist in movies. Heck, when they realized they were being tracked and risked losing Kilgrave, none of them even considered going to plan B: kill him before he gets away. Unspoilered for Gormongous: That episode was just a matryoshka of bad decisions that felt like the writers forcing the characters to act suboptimally to avoid them winning before the season was over. It sounds like you are bothered by the exact same things as me, do not watch this show. Edited to add some spoilery thoughts on why I didn't like Kilgrave as a character: Reveal hidden contents Kilgrave himself didn't unnerve me because he too suffered from the same "the writers are forcing him to be an idiot" problem, which made him hard to take seriously. At one point they were talking with the Kilgrave Victims Support Group (that he would carelessly leave so much evidence already strains credulity), and my immersion shattered when a guy said that Kilgrave approached him on the subway and made the guy give him his jacket. "Wait" I thought, "why is Kilgrave on the subway? Why doesn't he have a chauffeur?" It seems like a socially omnipotent mind controller should never be stuck taking the subway. Little things like that added up to create a picture of a villain whose actions advanced the goals of the plot rather than the supposed goals of the character. He wasn't a chilling sociopath, he was at best, an RPG character taking the Chaotic Evil option for the lulz, and at worst not a character at all but a walking plot device with "villain" written on his forehead. For instance, other than to enable the plot where Jessica finds him and almost succeeds at kidnapping him, why is he getting photos of Jessica delivered to him in person? Has he heard of email? Hell, the U.S. Postal Service? Anything would be both more secure and more convenient than attending an in-person meeting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted January 20, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 11:27 PM, Ninety-Three said: Reveal hidden contents That was why it bothered me so much that Jessica wouldn't kill him, her plan had an obvious hole in it, and the plot just didn't address that at all. What, are we supposed to believe that no one involved in the plan noticed this problem? Also, Jessica's strong enough to kill people? Then what was up with the scene where they kidnap Kilgrave, his thugs come after them, Jessica fights them, and she loses because they keep getting up and fighting after she hits them? She fought like every human-level martial artist in movies. Heck, when they realized they were being tracked and risked losing Kilgrave, none of them even considered going to plan B: kill him before he gets away. Unspoilered for Gormongous: That episode was just a matryoshka of bad decisions that felt like the writers forcing the characters to act suboptimally to avoid them winning before the season was over. It sounds like you are bothered by the exact same things as me, do not watch this show. Edited to add some spoilery thoughts on why I didn't like Kilgrave as a character: Reveal hidden contents Kilgrave himself didn't unnerve me because he too suffered from the same "the writers are forcing him to be an idiot" problem, which made him hard to take seriously. At one point they were talking with the Kilgrave Victims Support Group (that he would carelessly leave so much evidence already strains credulity), and my immersion shattered when a guy said that Kilgrave approached him on the subway and made the guy give him his jacket. "Wait" I thought, "why is Kilgrave on the subway? Why doesn't he have a chauffeur?" It seems like a socially omnipotent mind controller should never be stuck taking the subway. Little things like that added up to create a picture of a villain whose actions advanced the goals of the plot rather than the supposed goals of the character. He wasn't a chilling sociopath, he was at best, an RPG character taking the Chaotic Evil option for the lulz, and at worst not a character at all but a walking plot device with "villain" written on his forehead. For instance, other than to enable the plot where Jessica finds him and almost succeeds at kidnapping him, why is he getting photos of Jessica delivered to him in person? Has he heard of email? Hell, the U.S. Postal Service? Anything would be both more secure and more convenient than attending an in-person meeting. Dude. Some of your criticisms come off as simply not wanting to like this show, and looking for excuses. Like, sure, there are plot holes. Whatever, plot holes happen, bug some people more than others. Depends on the show and the hole how much they bug me. But almost all the rest of your criticisms are baseless, easily explained or so common in super hero stories if this is the kind of thing that bugs you, I can't imagine why you would bother watching any show with super heroes in it. I'm pretty sure I could counter-point each one, or demonstrate how it was decently explained in story what something needed to happen. But it's late, so I'll only hit two of them. Like, in non-spoiler territory, why can Jessica fight ordinary men without murdering them? Because she can pull her punches. Like Superman, Luke Cage, half the X-men, Spiderman, the Flash, Thor, Iron Man and on and on and on. Every single comic hero with super strength or super speed has the same problem. Jones has extra reason to pull her punches when the people she's fighting are tools of Kilgrave, and she's pretty bound and determined not to be forced to murder people, anyone, but doubly so when it involves people he's drug into their fight. So she pulls her punches to save their lives, and pays for it. And in spoiler territory: Reveal hidden contents The photos had to be delivered to him in person so he could reconnect with Marcus each day, maintaining control of his spy through a combination of his mind control and drug addiction. I'm also not all that convinced that past a certain point he even wanted to hide from Jones all that much. Just enough to force her to find him, but not so much that it was impossible. Once he had leverage to likely stop her from using a sniper rifle to take him out (through Hope and other hostages, because she does have a hero complex), he didn't need to hide. He expected her to find him, it's one of the reasons he hired the thugs in the first place, because he knew she could incapacitate him (thanks to his spy). It's established, over and over, that Kilgrave has to reconnect with his slaves every 12 hours or have a more traditional method of getting them to do what he wants (money, blackmail, drugs). He is going to want to regularly reconnect with the spy he installed right next door to his obsession. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninety-Three Posted January 20, 2016 On 1/20/2016 at 8:51 AM, Bjorn said: Dude. Some of your criticisms come off as simply not wanting to like this show, and looking for excuses. You caught me, I didn't watch this show because I thought it might be entertaining, but because I wanted to not like it. I spent hours watching Jessica Jones because I wanted to not like it. After watching the show I went to an internet forum to look for excuses not to like it. I also go to restaurants wanting the food to suck, and commute to work hoping to get stuck in traffic. I'd respond to your specifics, but I'm not sure how to have a discussion with someone who thinks that instead of being sincere, I am the Grinch of Television. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted January 20, 2016 Well, if your complaints didn't come off as the Grinch, I wouldn't have said that. One of your complaints was literally that the villain going to the subway once ruined your immersion in the show. I don't know how to treat that like a sincere criticism. It feels like trolling. Like, you cannot imagine a reason that the villain might have gone to the subway? Because traveling in New York is sometimes faster by subway even if you have a chauffeur? Because he was retracing Jones steps because he was a stalker and she uses the subway? Because he followed the guy in the purple jacket into the subway to take his jacket? I really don't see how that, of all things, is something worthy of criticism or immersion breaking. Edited to add: And that complaint is pretty much why I said you were looking for excuses not to like the show, because it comes off as that silly to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted January 20, 2016 On 1/20/2016 at 2:45 PM, Bjorn said: Well, if your complaints didn't come off as the Grinch, I wouldn't have said that. One of your complaints was literally that the villain going to the subway once ruined your immersion in the show. I don't know how to treat that like a sincere criticism. It feels like trolling. Like, you cannot imagine a reason that the villain might have gone to the subway? Because traveling in New York is sometimes faster by subway even if you have a chauffeur? Because he was retracing Jones steps because he was a stalker and she uses the subway? Because he followed the guy in the purple jacket into the subway to take his jacket? I really don't see how that, of all things, is something worthy of criticism or immersion breaking. Edited to add: And that complaint is pretty much why I said you were looking for excuses not to like the show, because it comes off as that silly to me. I'm with Bjorn on this. That's a really silly thing to focus on! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninety-Three Posted January 20, 2016 On 1/20/2016 at 2:45 PM, Bjorn said: Well, if your complaints didn't come off as the Grinch, I wouldn't have said that. One of your complaints was literally that the villain going to the subway once ruined your immersion in the show. I don't know how to treat that like a sincere criticism. It feels like trolling. I am real fucking sick of this attitude. I'm trying to have a good faith discussion, but if someone expresses an idea you don't understand or agree with, it can't be that human beings have a great diversity of thought and sincere opinion, no that person must be a troll. Internet debate is the worst, I quit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted January 20, 2016 Hey, dude, I understand your frustration, but do you realize that that's exactly how you make a lot of people feel sometimes when you get involved in a debate or argument on these forums? It's a two-way street. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cordeos Posted March 20, 2016 Daredevil season 2 is really well done. Not a huge fan of the Elektra, Stick, Hand stuff, but Elektra herself is a lot of fun.The Punisher is super well done, they really delve into the difference between police, Daredevil and the Punisher. Is the Daredevil's vigilantly justice any more legitimate than the Punishers because DD doesn't kill people? Some great nods to Jessica Jones existence. Can't wait until actual hero cameos happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brannigan Posted March 20, 2016 On 3/20/2016 at 8:46 PM, Cordeos said: Daredevil season 2 is really well done. Not a huge fan of the Elektra, Stick, Hand stuff, but Elektra herself is a lot of fun. The Punisher is super well done, they really delve into the difference between police, Daredevil and the Punisher. Is the Daredevil's vigilantly justice any more legitimate than the Punishers because DD doesn't kill people? Some great nods to Jessica Jones existence. Can't wait until actual hero cameos happen. Basically all the mystical crap is awful. Rest enjoyable though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cordeos Posted March 21, 2016 On 3/20/2016 at 11:32 PM, Brannigan said: Basically all the mystical crap is awful. Rest enjoyable though. Exactly, I usually like magic stuff but it seems really dumb in DD. Hopefully they don't focus on it in S3. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted April 2, 2016 On 11/10/2015 at 11:09 PM, Ben X said: Speaking of which, a popular modern version of "save the cat" seems to be "punish the child pornographer". Mr Robot had this, and also Daredevil S2 had the Punisher save the dog AND punish the child pornographer. He must be a really empathetic vigilante! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cordeos Posted October 4, 2016 I really enjoyed Luke Cage. It got a bit weak in the back half of the season, but the acting, characters, music and bits of cultural discussion were fantastic. This article contains spoilers but has information on the songs from the show, I have a bunch of albums to buy now:http://zap2it.com/2016/10/marvels-luke-cage-wu-tang-clan-notorious-big-cheo-hodari-coker-music/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trip Hazard Posted October 6, 2016 I finally got around to Jessica Jones and, with two episodes under my belt, I'm enjoying it immensely. It's stylish as hell, Jessica herself is very likable, and Kilgrave seems like a complete bastard which is all I ever wanted in a baddie. Please nobody tell me that it becomes a weaker show as the series goes on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted October 7, 2016 I enjoyed Jessica Jones all the way through, whereas I agree with Cordeos about Luke Cage (as I tweeted, "Luke Cage got boring about halfway through. Same problems as Daredevil - boring villains and too many episodes led to endless wheel-spinning"). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trip Hazard Posted November 1, 2016 I finished Jessica Jones and thoroughly enjoyed it, except for one small moment of Hollywood nonsense. Reveal hidden contents Having delivered a competent pep-talk to the shivering, vomiting heroine addict, Jessica hands him a bag of horse, effectively forcing him to choose between dying with it or living without it. She comes back later and smiles thinly to herself: he chose not to take it, just as she (and every single viewer) knew he would! What an inspirational triumph of the human will. What a load of bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melmer Posted February 8, 2017 if you had asked me before any of the shows aired which I was most interested in, it would've been immortal Iron Fist. But that last trailer, woof, looks like a right stinker. It's looked terrible ever since the casting to be fair. Honestly what the hell were they playing at. Hopefully he'll die and the iron fist powers will get past on to an Asian actor. That's how it works isn't it? Or is it like a reincarnation thing. I only read one comic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melmer Posted February 8, 2017 Dub step? Is it 2013 it just looks like daredevil but instead of the whole blind thing they went with curly hair, no shoes and a garbage tattoo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
