Fairygdmther Posted February 9, 2005 I don't think that's the reason at all. With the death of LucasArts and possibly Sierra, adventure games that appeal(ed) to 14-24 year old males aren't being made anymore. I doubt they gave up on the genre (if they did) because they were frustrated at a lack of progression and innovation, as you keep saying. The most frustrating thing - to me, at least - is a lack of basic quality. There are two long threads that go into this at AG Groups... and Myst. That's where that idea came from. FGM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted February 9, 2005 Does this still seem so far-fetched to you? Can you not see this woman?Sure. But ultimately, I don't think it matters. I'd play Syberia (for example) if it just wasn't so bad. Seriously, my main problem with Syberia is the dialogue and the lack of interactivity. And I'm not a 38-year-old female.And I don't think the majority of adventure game players specifically WANT action. Most likely, many of us don't MIND action (in the traditional, old sense of the word). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted February 9, 2005 There are two long threads that go into this at AG Groups... and Myst. That's where that idea came from. I think many feel that adventure games would be so much better with the new features introduced in other genres (not necessarily action). They still miss their old genre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duncan Posted February 9, 2005 There are two long threads that go into this at AG Groups... and Myst. That's where that idea came from. Uh, yeah, I posted in both of them. At any rate this is turning into an AdventureGamers-IdleThumbs Crossover Event, so I'll just say this: yes, I think adventure games need a shot in the arm, as you put it. So in my last post I was a little bit wrong. But that shot in the arm is going to be worthless unless it's a genuine attempt to make the games better rather than a superficial, temporary distraction from the fact it's still much the same as before. A lot of people in that first AG thread are talking about high levels of interactivity and high quality writing that's missing from today's adventure games and getting that back is hardly "beyond the scope of the adventure genre." And as far as innovation goes, the boundaries of the 'adventure game' are so nebulous and ill-defined that discussions on this (especially at AG) usually end in semantics about what the intention was of the guy who made the text game 'Adventure' and any sort of change is out of the question. For the most part, I've given up on the adventure game because there's so much concern now about making adventure games rather than making good games. And something like Dreamfall has to spend hours being discussed by some arbitrary fan committee to decide whether or not it's an adventure game or not and therefore whether or not it's worth playing. I'm sick of the semantics, sick of the conservatism and sick of acceptance and praise of bad adventure games just because they're adventure games. Uh, that whole thing ended up quite disjointed and rambling, sorry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fairygdmther Posted February 9, 2005 On Jan 22, 2005, at AG I posted this: At the risk of pitting myself in a battle between BJ and Trep, I would like to interject something here. I do feel that the adventure genre DOES need a shot in the arm - it does need to evolve. But taking that in the direction of fighting or other action sequences is NOT the way to do it. Graphics - the adv developers have mastered this - environments are gorgeous true-to-life vistas. Audio - many games have wonderful audio tracks and appropriate music to the situation 3D vs 2D - adv games have mastered the 2D slide-show, but barely made any inroads toward 3D real-time interactive environments - needs work Gameplay - why can't a 3D graphic engine allow use of an inventory? why can't items be picked up and manipulated? - needs a lot of work Movement - eliminating the dizzying movement found in many games when point and click is not used - needs work Exploration - a few games have allowed for total exploration - new area and needs work Linearity - any game CAN be replayed, but to enhance replayability it's necessary to introduce a much greater percentage of nonlinearity, through choices in action as well as conversation - needs work Story - enough with the hokey rehashed stories! get a writer! - needs major work Character development - along with story, we need to see some progression in the main character - he/she represents us, so he/she better be good and getting better - needs a lot of work User-friendly controls - adv games run the gamut from excellent to god-awful - why must each new game reinvent the wheel? - needs work Puzzles - good puzzles are difficult to construct so that they can be accomplished by the majority of the players, yet are still enjoyed by the die-hard puzzle aficionados. Everyone seems to agree, though, they need to be integrated with the story, and not something to extend the length of the game. - needs work Inventory management - ease of use should be de rigeur by now, but it isn't. labels need to be seen on mouseover to identify the green blob as a gem. also, when a player progresses to the next level, items no longer needed should be automatically removed from the inventory - scrolling thru 60 unlabelled items can be a nightmare - needs work Saving - this should not even be an issue, but it is - unlimited manual saves - period! - needs work Miscellaneous - alternate camera angles would help in many games, even if only on closeup; a journal is a nice feature, as is the ability to keep your own notes within the game; many players would like to keep track of points as they progress - a nice option; separate sound level controls for music, background sounds and voices, and the ability to mute music and background sounds as needed; subtitles on ALL games; color palettes chosen to avoid the color-blindness issues - this is a very common problem; immediate restore after a death to just before - please don't make us go thru 5 min of lead-up to the problem; listen to your beta testers - all of them, they are your buffer between you and the world, and fix the mistakes before the games are released. Admit errors and release patches in a timely fashion; if you must install copy-protection, use one that won't hurt those who legitimately purchase your game. Summary - Adventure games need to progress - desperately. When you stand still, you fall behind. They need to evolve - into better adventure games - not into hybrids. There's plenty of room in the gaming world for hybrids - some of which are truly excellent. But there's also room for newer, better adventure games to be made. And later replied with this the next day: Yes, Trep, I did forget Marketing as an issue, and I meant to rant about it one more time, but still, for the games themselves what I'm asking for doesn't involve that much more work or money, just an emphasis on player enjoyment. Reading some of the intervening posts I was wondering if we've just become too jaded. We've all played many adv games, and too many bad ones, to be sure, but to complain about Syberia, for instance, bothers me. It was a totally original story with gorgeous graphics, and not all the puzzles were THAT easy, though some were. And the complaints about crossing so many screens where nothing is happening smacks of impatience - impatience because things aren't happening fast enough for the player - hello? These are adventure games - you're supposed to be having enough time to look around and explore. If things aren't moving quickly enough for you, then perhaps you are playing the wrong genre for you. I also feel that some of the complaints about Syberia is that it was well-liked, and it's just not cool to like something that's popular - it's much more cool to criticize it. And complaining about 10 year old Myst? This game rocked the genre - for good or for bad, it altered the way adventures are viewed. You don't have to like Myst, but, damn, at least give it credit for being an original and with a groundbreaking approach to graphics. Sure, I'd love to have more games like Obsidian, or Timelapse, or Sanitarium, but these games didn't make it big, and the teams have been dismantled. And ineffective marketing is what killed them. Perhaps the Lucas Arts and Sierra games were also prone to the insipid marketing practices, I don't know for sure, but those teams, too, are gone. Game development has increased exponentially in the last ten years, as a result of many factors - console development, Myst (like it or no), and growing popular interest. Many colleges are now offering programs, so maore people are getting into game making fields. But who are these people? Largely they are twenty-something year old males, and the majority of twenty-something year old males like action gameplay. The older games that you're all lamenting that are not being made any more? They were developed by older software developers - those for whom action was not always the prime concern. I'm not trying to start the age-wars again, but that is reality. If the games made with the biggest bucks are the biggest sellers, then that's where the money will continue to flow. And because the marketers have been twidding their thumbs and not researching the various gaming genre's audiences, they are missing the boat on a huge possible source of entry level gamers in the men and women of 35 or older. You can't bring people in to play games that don't exist, and the ones that do exist are riddled with errors, poor gameplay and inventory management, etc., then you're going to discourage those who may come in and try adv games. And why are they so bad? Because there isn't the money put into them to improve them, when they're not going to make big money. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone criticizes TAC (The Adventure Company) for their mediocre games, and they are right about that. However TAC gets adventure games out with popular themes (Egypt, Atlantis, etc), with pretty boxes that catch the eye of those not knowledgeable about games, and they impulse buy them. They don't have great stories, or the best graphics, but they can be run on older machines. TAC has brought many gamers into the fold, and I'm one of them (Atlantis II or Beyond Atlantis). Once these people learn what a huge number of adventure games there are out there that don't involve violence, they get sucked into the gaming world. While TAC's marketing isn't the greatest either, they are bringing people in. That's more than I can say for the mega-game developers do for adventures. The primary issues with the adventure gaming world isn't that there aren't any good games, it's that the ones that are coming out haven't had the best financial backing to bring out the best in them (for example - Journey to the Center of the Earth). How do we reach the developers, and make them see that there is a market for the games? How do we get them to market the games to the right people, so that we get more games sold? The more games that are sold (and this is where games like Syberia come in), the more money will be given for future games to be made with all the bells and whistles. And you aren't going to sell games if people don't know about them. Yes, we in the forums know, but to bring in new people, you need to get them interested. FGM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manny_c44 Posted February 9, 2005 No one's going to read that, sucker! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fairygdmther Posted February 9, 2005 No one's going to read that, sucker! And you people wonder why there are stereotypes about young guys and their short attention spans! sigh... FGM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted February 9, 2005 FGM: Do you want me to write a critial analysis of Syberia? Fine. I'll get to it eventually, and hopefully get it finished before I become 38 or female... :awesome: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David Posted February 9, 2005 Speaking of short att...let's go ride bikes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manny_c44 Posted February 9, 2005 And you people wonder why there are stereotypes about young guys and their short attention spans! sigh...FGM I just appreciate a concise idea. Though overblown treatises have their own appeal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duncan Posted February 9, 2005 FGM: Do you want me to write a critial analysis of Syberia? Fine. I'll get to it eventually, and hopefully get it finished before I become 38 or female... I would like you to write a critical analysis of Syberia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redwall Posted February 10, 2005 "I think it should be pretty clear at this point that adventure [developers] committed suicide." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fairygdmther Posted February 10, 2005 FGM: Do you want me to write a critial analysis of Syberia? Fine. I'll get to it eventually, and hopefully get it finished before I become 38 or female... :awesome: While you could do worse than to write a critical article on Syberia, that's not what I'm asking. (On the other hand, you could try to refute Trep's excellent article on Syberia Even I wouldn't take that on!). Anyway, saying that it's just shit, without giving specific reasons why you think it is terrible doesn't give anyone any idea where you're coming from. There are many shitty games out there: Adventure at the Chateau D'Or(boring, repetitious, pretentious game), the Odyssey (terrible interface), Legend of the Lotus Spring (hardly any game - mostly walking around a pretty garden), etc. Journey to the Center of the Earth, for example, could have been a decent game, if only they had taken the time to beta test and fix the bugs - there were spots where Ariane would spin in circles all by herself, with no help from the player, and "black holes" where you couldn't get her to move out of them, where the game didn't freeze, but you were stuck, and had to restore. In comparison to these, Syberia is wonderful. Maybe you think I'm settling for mediocrity, by liking Syberia, but for me the game shows that there was a lot of love in creating it, and that comes through to the player. It's not my all-time favorite game, but neither is it shit. FGM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted February 10, 2005 #4 - Marketing for adv games is abysmal! Since the premise is that adv games are non-violent exploration/puzzle games, why not use that in the advertising? Market them as family fare, where people can play them with their kids. Make the games with easy and difficult settings so that they would be opened up to more players. Utilize the fact that adv games have a longer shelf life than other genres (they're essentially timeless), so that older games get re-released, and are available to make money for longer (read that in years) for the developers. Perhaps if they realized that, and the backers who provide the funds knew that, then more money would be available for better game development.#5 - Yes, adv games need a shot in the arm. They need to come up to the standards of the other genres, but they can't do that without the essential ingredient - money. Graphics have definitely improved, and 3D is coming in slowly, but at the expense of other parts of the game (story, gameplay, etc.). Instead of being so critical of adv games, even if it seems cool to do so, try being constructive, and help them to find ways to attract more adv game players and attract more revenue. [/rant] The Cold Hotspot: Part 3 - Selling ice to Eskimos is coming soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fairygdmther Posted February 10, 2005 The Cold Hotspot: Part 3 - Selling ice to Eskimos is coming soon. Well, I hope you don't get this response to it, Trep: "No one's going to read that, sucker!" Anyway, I'm looking forward to it. FGM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted February 10, 2005 No one's going to read that, sucker! Too bad for those retards who don't, because FGM does actually pinpoint some VERY IMPORTANT SHIT, MAN! For those who don't: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted February 10, 2005 Anyway, saying that it's just shit, without giving specific reasons why you think it is terrible doesn't give anyone any idea where you're coming from.Oh, THAT. THAT was just me being all Thumby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wormsie Posted February 10, 2005 Syberia's interface was unintuitive, too many buttons to click. And they say direct control is evil... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redwall Posted February 10, 2005 Anyway, saying that it's just shit, without giving specific reasons why you think it is terrible doesn't give anyone any idea where you're coming from. Seriously, my main problem with Syberia is the dialogue and the lack of interactivity. ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
