BioShock - They weren't kidding...

[LOPcagney]

OK. Just beat it tonight and all I have to say is this:

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That was the most disappointing ending to any game I have ever played. Not that there haven't been worse endings, but Bioshock was incredible up until maybe the last 3 levels, which were extremely mediocre.The Proving Grounds level had incredible potential. I was totally sucked in by the whole museum thing, and the idea of being a big daddy was great, but they turned it into what was essentially an on-rails shooter.

Plus, I had bought and found almost every type of ammunition and most plasmids by Fort Frolic, and I was saving the girls. I felt it needed to be paced differently so that the Inventable tonics were much harder to invent and just give you many more options. By the last level, U-Invent machines just registered as Circuses without any health or eve.

It was too easy to get everything. The choices you made early on had no bearing on your final character because it was possible to get every tonic and every plasmid and every weapon however you played the game. I would have liked to see cause+effect scenarios with the plasmids and tonics, limiting the effectiveness of certain ones if you equipped them simultaneously, so that you couldn't be a 1337 hacker and rambo at the same time. It was too easy.

And the final boss looked like the Torch from Fantastic 4.

None of these are big issues in and of themselves, but I expected so much more.

I loved Bioshock, but I couldn't replay it the same way I could Deus Ex.

But besides that, Bioshock was grand ! 8.5-9/10

[ThunderPeel2001]

I guess after what happened with System Shock and then again with System Shock 2, the journalists were going ape to try and knock people out of their complacency. It works against people like me, though, that were always going to buy Bioshock because of the earlier two games.

Still, I'm very glad it appears to have been a financial success.

Also, I actually like the open endedness of the skill system. I don't want to get on a level filled with security only to find that I've equipped myself as a fighter too much and really struggle because of a poor GUESS. Much more enjoyable if you ask me the way they designed it this time around, but definitely less RPGish.

[LOPcagney]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

I guess after what happened with System Shock and then again with System Shock 2, the journalists were going ape to try and knock people out of their complacency. It works against people like me, though, that were always going to buy Bioshock because of the earlier two games.

Still, I'm very glad it appears to have been a financial success.

Also, I actually like the open endedness of the skill system. I don't want to get on a level filled with security only to find that I've equipped myself as a fighter too much and really struggle because of a poor GUESS. Much more enjoyable if you ask me the way they designed it this time around, but definitely less RPGish.

Yeah, I guess I agree with the open-endedness aspect of it. It worked for me. I hacked, cracked, and shot everything I could see. It's just that I felt it belittled the whole character creation aspect. Like, you couldn't really be a "hacker" because you'd only be able to occupy half your available slots with tonics. I don't object to the customization. I half-wish that each category was limited to 3 slots and Gene Banks were made more plentiful so that you could switch everything in and out but it was extremely important to chose skills that complimented each other.

[Wrestlevania]

Finished it on Thursday night last week.

After being elated initially, then somewhat disappointed about midway through, it turned out to be worthwhile in the end. The story was great and more than made up for the combat.

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I suspected the Atlas/Fontaine thing to some degree, but the way in which it was executed in-game was exceptional; I really didn't want to smash Ryan's head in with that golf club!

I also felt strangely hollow and isolated after those couple of scenes unfolded and the wretched truth finally came spilling out. Being dumped into the orphanage at that point was a brilliant bit of direction; I don't think I've ever been quite so affected by a game's narrative as that before now.

But I finished it with the good ending, which, for the record, I thought was excellent as far as game endings go. It certainly put Crackdown's utterly pathetic climax - which I finally reached the following night - into very stark relief.

[LOPcagney]

  Wrestlevania said:

Finished it on Thursday night last week.

After being elated initially, then somewhat disappointed about midway through, it turned out to be worthwhile in the end. The story was great and more than made up for the combat.

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I suspected the Atlas/Fontaine thing to some degree, but the way in which it was executed in-game was exceptional; I really didn't want to smash Ryan's head in with that golf club!

I also felt strangely hollow and isolated after those couple of scenes unfolded and the wretched truth finally came spilling out. Being dumped into the orphanage at that point was a brilliant bit of direction; I don't think I've ever been quite so affected by a game's narrative as that before now.

But I finished it with the good ending, which, for the record, I thought was excellent as far as game endings go. It certainly put Crackdown's utterly pathetic climax - which I finally reached the following night - into very stark relief.

Absolutely. I watched the

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bad ending on Youtube, and the good ended is much much better. It was a really great way to "rescue" rapture. Though the city is gone, the memory lives on and the people survive. My major disappointment was that I wasn't ready to play through the game again.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yeah, I enjoyed the ending, too. Glad I wasn't alone! I wish there'd been some credits on a black screen so I could have soaked up the atmosphere a bit more (rather than suddenly jumping to the main menu), but otherwise very nicely done.

The game's weakest elements were definitely its scripting, though, despite the good bits.

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It's very hard to believe that Rapture was once a fully functioning city. Where are all the normal people? Did they ALL turn into "splicers" from "over splicing"?! The only people who were left were psychopathic lunatics. If they do a sequel, maybe we could find all these people hiding in another section of the city, and they could become more involved?

Why was the city completely wrecked from only a year's worth of neglect?

Still, the main bits were brilliant. It's just odd that the game-world, which was much more believable on a space ship - everyone's been killed and there's freaky mutants wandering the corridors - than in a massive city.

The review I linked to really sums it up, IMO.

I also wanted to really feel like playing it again afterwards. But I still don't.

[toblix]

The more I think about it, as a shooter, I thought it quickly became tedious. The combat -- especially weapon/ammo/magic selection -- was a real chore to handle right to the end, and the Big Daddy fights were never fun. I just ended up in a corner, unable to move, trying to select and fire any fucking weapon before I was sent back to the respawn chamber.

The Myst-esque/-ish aspects of exploration, and the story, were really what made me want to progress further. I really think that the fact that I actually enjoyed it, despite the amount of boring fighting, is a real testament to their world and story crafting skills.

[brkl]

Eh, how about trying to come up with some sort of strategy, huh?

[toblix]

What, for fighting? Sure, that was the interesting parts of the combat. Setting shit on fire and... all that. Interesting, by the way, how the examples of how complex the environmental interactions were were not only examples of that , but also an exhaustive enumeration.

Anyway, I usually found that fiddling with weapons and making sure I wasn't using the wrong ammo type was too much of a hassle to do clever stuff on the fly. I ended up with using the crossbow, then shotgun, then revolver on people, and the machine gun, then revolver on machines. I often opened with setting people on fire, too, although that usually made them run away from me, something I seldom wanted. And then there was the photography bit, which I thought was cool, but never actually used because I couldn't be bothered with it on top of all the weapon switching. And switching to magic in mid-combat just to discover I'm out of mana sucked. Didn't the 360 version freeze the game when you were switching weapons and magic? I would love that.

[brkl]

I mean coming up with more of a strategy to beat the big daddies than standing in a corner and hoping. How about setting some traps?

How can you be so terrible in a game critisized for its lack of challenge?

[toblix]

Yeah, the big daddies. Well, I could always open with some clever traps or something, but it'd never have much effect, and I'd still end up having to just shoot and shoot and shoot. The melee guys I could evade, but once they hit me once, I could pretty much just try to find the biggest gun and click until I respawned. With the ones with guns, it was just a big shooting competition, with my advantage being eternal life. If there was some layer of strategy I never found it. I never said the combat was hard, I said it was tedious. I'm not exactly Mr. Strategy, so I'm sure there are more intellectually stimulating ways to kill the Big Daddies than to just shoot. It's just that I'm not strategic enough.

And I suck at most games. It stems from my tendency to give up quickly when faced with repeated failure and/or high stress levels. I even think the "life bar" in Phoenix Wright is a pain in the ass!

[Noyb]

  toblix said:

And then there was the photography bit, which I thought was cool, but never actually used because I couldn't be bothered with it on top of all the weapon switching.

Psst.

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Photography increases the amount of damage you do to enemies over time. And using electricity to stun the big daddies, laying waste with electr/explody shotgun shells, then shocking again was my method for killing them.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

  toblix said:

Yeah, the big daddies. Well, I could always open with some clever traps or something, but it'd never have much effect, and I'd still end up having to just shoot and shoot and shoot....If there was some layer of strategy I never found it.

There are strategies. The game is as fun as you want it to be.

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I never said the combat was hard, I said it was tedious. I'm not exactly Mr. Strategy, so I'm sure there are more intellectually stimulating ways to kill the Big Daddies than to just shoot. It's just that I'm not strategic enough.

Then learn to be strategic. Actually, I think your situation is that you're not used to being creative. The game offers you that and you don't know what to do. Have many of the other games you've played been more constricting in how they let you defeat enemies?

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And I suck at most games. It stems from my tendency to give up quickly when faced with repeated failure and/or high stress levels. I even think the "life bar" in Phoenix Wright is a pain in the ass!

I noticed you've been complaining or bringing up issues in this game (and some other games you've played) a little more than posting about how you discovered ways to overcome obstacles. Is that a matter of the kinds of games you've played before? That you're very used to?

Or does a game like Bioshock, when it may not be clear in telling you that you can do a bunch of things freely and in combined ways, confuse you?

[toblix]

  Intrepid Homoludens said:

There are strategies. The game is as fun as you want it to be.

Oh, if that was the truth I'd still be playing WoW.

  Intrepid Homoludens said:

Then learn to be strategic. Actually, I think your situation is that you're not used to being creative. The game offers you that and you don't know what to do. [...] Does a game like Bioshock, when it may not be clear in telling you that you can do a bunch of things freely and in combined ways, confuse you?

It's just such a hassle changing weapons when I constantly have to wipe drool off my chin and have my diapers changed. What, am I the only fucking guy not to think Bioshock's combat was totally and off-the-wall awesome? That's it, I'm going on Youtube to look at all the cool combat strategies Bioshock offers me.

[Cigol]

Using the camera to take research photos was hilarious.

It's impossible to use stealth to do it (thanks to the woefully crude and obvious scripting) so you end up just running into combat snapping pictures willy nilly (because there's about 400 different rolls of film conveniently laying around the place).

Personally I didn't have much of an issue with combat in the later game. Big Daddies quickly lose their bite (although they were never anything more than sheer brutes with large health bars to begin with) whilst the rest of the clientèle are as dumb as pig shit. Repetitive gun fodder that doesn't require much in the way of strategy beyond shooting them in the head.

It's a pity that in this day and age that the original Half-Life continues to stand out from the crowd with (especially for its time) gob smacking, challenging and varied artificial intelligence & enemies.

A Big Daddy...

[Wrestlevania]

  Cigol said:

"We got hostiles!"

Love, love, love that moment.

I'm not sure your comparison is entirely warranted, though: Splicers are just crazed lunatics with no worthwhile combat experience, whereas Half-Life's marines were an organised and regimented fighting force. Two very distinct and contrasting gameplay - and therefore AI - requirements in my opinion, both of which were executed perfectly.

[Thrik]

Heh, man. HL1 was such a great big pile of greatness. Stop reminding me, because I can't stomach playing it with its graphics anymore.

[Wrestlevania]

*cough*

Fingers crossed!

[Nappi]

What is Valve's stance on this mod, btw?

I liked HL2, but the story didn't feel at all interesting. I figured it might have to do with me not playing the original game, but the graphics are way too outdated for me to bother buying it. This mod would probably be the perfect solution. If it ever sees the light of day that is...

[Thrik]

Yes. Although I was looking forward to that remake in 2004 and it's now 2007, which has sapped my enthusiasm somewhat. By the time it's done they'll have to remake it again to keep up!

Hopefully that'll slap some of the newer Source tech into there like motion blur and HDR to spice it up, if it does come out.

[Wrestlevania]

  Thrik said:

Hopefully [they'll] slap some of the newer Source tech into there like motion blur and HDR to spice it up, if it does come out.

It'll be the most cutting edge user-created mod available for the Source engine, I've no doubt. We'll see it soon I'm sure.

[Redwall]

I still play HL1 every once in a while and don't mind the graphics...

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What is Valve's stance on this mod, btw?

They asked/made them drop the "Source" from the name (so as not to confuse and because it's a Valve trademark IIRC), making it just "Black Mesa", but other than that I think they've been supportive.

[brkl]

First you blame Bioshock for obvious scripting and then you bring up Half-Life?

[Cigol]

  brkl said:

First you blame Bioshock for obvious scripting and then you bring up Half-Life?

Yeah? An eight year old game that was created largely on the basis of scripting set-pieces. The game isn't faultless obviously, particularly its sequel, but neither game is as jarring in execution as Bioshock. Nor is its combat dictated by silly ON/OFF triggers. I'm sorry, but when I can literally visualise the boundaries of a trigger its what I call bad design and I can do that with Bioshock many times over.

Although I admit it had its good moments (like the steam covered room). The point remains nonetheless.

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I'm not sure your comparison is entirely warranted, though: Splicers are just crazed lunatics with no worthwhile combat experience, whereas Half-Life's marines were an organised and regimented fighting force. Two very distinct and contrasting gameplay - and therefore AI - requirements in my opinion, both of which were executed perfectly.

You make a somewhat valid point (which is debatable given their combat orientated plasmids and the amount of time and skirmish that has undoubtedly passed) but I wasn't actually bothered by their lack of combat nuance in terms of strategy or tactics. It was more their complete universal stupidity and lack of genuine character.

I don't really equate spewing random sentences and running wildly around the place (occasionally into walls or inanimate objects) as a defining characteristic of personality - but that's what we are supposed to swallow. I understand their behaviour (or lack of) can be explained away as a part of this lunacy, but they never really struck me as true lunatics in the cut scenes, as there they were clearly cognitive.

It just seems like a quick and dirty way to include gun fodder and get away with it. In the end they become an annoyance rather than something to fear or enjoy duelling with. This perception isn't helped by more distinct enemies featuring similarly basic AI and routines.

[LOPcagney]

Although I admit it had its good moments (like the steam covered room). The point remains nonetheless.

Yeah, I had a question about that room.

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What made it so effective for me was that the thing didn't jump at me until I had turned around and looked at it for a second. I felt the same way with the frozen dancers in Fort Frolic. Do you know if Bioshock had scripting that was triggered whenever the player looked at an object? And if so, is it just me, or is this the first time something like this has been used in an FPS (or a game of any genre). We've seen triggers that are sensitive to your relative position for ages, but I don't recall anyone ever building a game that had triggers sensitive to your relative perspective...