Brütal Legend overload...!

[ohnobruno]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

Hmmm. I may have been too harsh in my criticism of the RTS stuff. I played a multiplayer practice against the CPU and it took me a while to realise that I haven't really been playing it properly (despite having not lost a battle in the game itself). I have to say, at the end of finally beating the most gentle AI (which took ages) I felt like I'd learned an awful lot... it really is a lot more structured than I previously thought.

I'm liking the RTS stuff a lot more now... or at least understanding it a lot more. It certainly made me feel like giving it another go.

If you're disappointed with the chaotic feel of the RTS, like I was, I suggest playing against the gentlest AI to check your tactics.

I just played two multiplater matches and I had a pretty good time, but I did notice things I didn't during the campaign like being able to use the spotlights as cannons if they attack your stage. I got slaughtered in my first match but during the second match I was able to use the spotlights to beat back an assualt on my stage and ended up winning. That Six Degress of Schaefer achievement must be everywhere now because I got it after the first match.

I did find it strange that during the first match we were both Drowning Doom and during the second we were both Ironheade because it was tough - especially when I was flying - to tell the difference between sides.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yeah, I was losing horribly against the easiest AI until I changed my tactics. (Yes, that's rights... tactics! I really didn't think there was any strategy!) I didn't notice you could upgrade certain units for one thing, and I could really see how upgrading your stage could make a huge difference... Plus, as Schafer says, if you're using it purely as an RTS you're only going to enter a world of pain -- You need to get Eddie into the action, too.

Dammit, thinking back, it really was actually good fun!

[Roderick]

Okay, I'm quite near the ending, like someone else above me I stopped before the final battle because I was exhausted just having had another one. I had played the whole game on Brütal difficulty and really liked the challenge. Ambushes and stuff were difficult, but doable with double teams. It rarely felt unfair. But during the pre-final battle I just got steamrollered to death a few times, so I put it to Gentle and was done with it.

I both love this game, and am frustrated by it in equal measure.

  Reveal hidden contents

First point of frustration that I've heard no one mention: The Fletus races. This has me torn. Because racing is probably the funnest thing in the whole game. Just blasting around with the Druid Plow is insanely awesome, and a proper race could have been the best thing ever. Unfortunately, the races suffer from some major pain in the ass design choices! Firstly, the collision detection feels greatly positioned against you. If you even so much as chip something, you'll come to stop. And you can't just turn away, because for some reason your bumper sticks to whatever it hits, so you'll go all crazy. But most infuriatingly about the races is that Fletus is basically a ghost following a pre-scripted path from which he physically cannot deviate. So if you touch him, even slightly, what happens is that YOU get pushed 180 degrees aside, most of the time. The result is that you have this object that you MAY NOT TOUCH that races alongside you on the best possible path to the finish. That has caused some insanely frustrating moments. Only because I wanted to finish everything in the game properly did I persist. Even after winning, the cheap way in which the races were rigged against me robbed me of any enjoyment.

The RTS stuff stays fun, so far. Strangely enough, I often wish it were just a point 'n click rts. I feel I'd have enjoyed the weird troops a lot more. Of course, I can't really blame the game for what it doesn't try to be.

I do really love the world. That's so amazingly well done. The second part of the game I deliberately didn't check the map or bother with the missions, but just started getting lost in those wonderful swamps and plains and jungles, loving it all, trying to find the dragon statues. That's the most amazing thing in the game. (Also, the weird Ozzie-bat sidemission which was funny). I fear though that the game will suffer the same fate as any sandbox open-ended world game like GTA: once you finish everything, the world becomes ghastly empty.

OH WAIT, there was one other thing that I was disappointed by. This really shocked me. It's a pretty early story plotpoint. The Eddie/Ophelia split up. That was one underdeveloped plot point! I totally didn't buy it. Eddie overheard Dovicilus mention something about a woman, and suddenly he becomes the world's largest dick and totally dumps her. After all that talk about trust, he doesn't even give her the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't even say 'we'll talk about this later', he just flat out leaves her to die. I didnt buy that at all. The whole game Eddie has done nothing but believing in people, trusting them, and suddenly THIS? I loved their relationship as lovers/enemies, but this was just badly done. Especially since one expects these things, above all else, to be exceedingly well done in a Schafer game.

Final point of praise: Tim Curry. I love how he portrays Dovicilus without becoming the hilarious Tim Curry Dr. Frankenfurter caricature that a lesser game might require of him. Props to that.

[Vorlonesque]

Seeing the soundtrack listing actually made me want this game a huge amount more than I did to begin with. There were a number of crazy hilarious songs I love that were in there (Thus Spake The Nightspirit, Her Ghost in the Fog, Rip The System, Progenies of the Great Apocalypse, Thieves, Angels Don't Kill, Crack the Skye, etc).

I'm a huge metal fan (I even don't mind the growling and screaming anymore), but even if I wasn't this soundtrack would be great for both the newer stuff and the older stuff from the 80s. I can't wait to sit down and play this.

[Patters]

Yeah the soundtrack is absolutely fantastic, in a way I am glad that there is No Maiden, it wouldn't fit to the game quite as well, plus they are fairly mainstream; I am also very happy that there is no Metallica. Although it is a pity that there is only one song by both Anthrax and Slayer, to me it seems that they should have more of them, particularly with 'thrax being pretty much perfect driving music.

EDIT: It is also the only game, with a licenced soundtrack, where I love the soundtrack enough to never skip any song.

[Nevsky]

  Patters said:

Although it is a pity that there is only one song by both Anthrax and Slayer, to me it seems that they should have more of them, particularly with 'thrax being pretty much perfect driving music.

I agree that it's good there's no Maiden or Metallica, but I have mixed feelings about the Slayer and Anthrax. One of the one hand, yeah, I would have loved more by them, but on the other, I'm pretty happy that they went with slightly obscure choices off their earlier (less well regarded) albums.

There's the chance that if they went for stuff off the bigger albums, you'd end up with yet another game with 'Raining Blood' in. I generally don't skip the songs in Brutal Legend, but when bloody 'Through the Fire and Flames' comes on, I have to. It's not a bad song, and perfectly suited for the game, but I've heard it more than enough for one lifetime.

Also a little puzzled that, in the opening cut-scene, Eddie says he wishes he had been alive in the 'early 70s', yet there's very little much from around then, Budgie and Sabbath aside. It's much more NWOBHM, or Thrash.

Still, I like the soundtrack a lot, on the whole.

For the record, I love the use of Ministry's 'Thieves'. Awesome.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Nevsky

[Patters]

  Nevsky said:

I agree that it's good there's no Maiden or Metallica, but I have mixed feelings about the Slayer and Anthrax. One of the one hand, yeah, I would have loved more by them, but on the other, I'm pretty happy that they went with slightly obscure choices off their earlier (less well regarded) albums.

I am really glad that they didn't choose any of the other Neil turbin thrax, because that stuff is awful, I would have prefered the John Bush version of Metal thrashing Mad. Then again, I would have been indifferent if Manowar wasn't on there at all.

I am really glad with the Motorhead choices, neither overkill nor ace of spades is present, which is a good thing.

Also I believe that by early 70s he meant his birthdate, so he would be around for the entirity of the 80s.

[ThunderPeel2001]

  Patters said:

Also I believe that by early 70s he meant his birthdate, so he would be around for the entirity of the 80s.

I don't think so, I think he meant being around for the birth of it all: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Judas Priest, Motorhead, etc. I also think the song list was probably held back by budget more than anything, but I'm also glad that there aren't any songs I'm overly familiar with (excluding Through the Fire and Flames, which I never need to hear again).

[Nevsky]

  Thunderpeel2001 said:

(excluding Through the Fire and Flames, which I never need to hear again).

Hey, I take it back, because of Wikipedia!

  Quote

The game is set within a fictional "Age of Metal" where every element of the graphic and audio design is intended to capture the essence of heavy metal. The song's appearance is a tribute to the place of itself and Dragonforce in the canon of heavy metal. [citation needed]

Also, I think that the majority of the late-70s and 80s choices are too selective and not-obvious (I love the Motorhead and Judas Priest selections, definitely) for them to be constrained by budget, so I would guess that those eras are Schafer's/the music co-ordinator's periods of choice. I'm sure they would have been able to afford a Deep Purple track a least - especially if they can afford songs like The Beautiful People, which mustn't be a cheap one.

Man, I'm going far too deep into this. That line - while it's quite a punchline, and made me laugh both in the demo and the full game - does seem a little incongruous, given the tracklist. I'll stop now.

[syntheticgerbil]

  Nevsky said:

I agree that it's good there's no Maiden or Metallica, but I have mixed feelings about the Slayer and Anthrax. One of the one hand, yeah, I would have loved more by them, but on the other, I'm pretty happy that they went with slightly obscure choices off their earlier (less well regarded) albums.

I'm with Nevsky on this one. It helps to have lesser known stuff, just for the sake of exposure and sort of makes a song maybe tons of people wouldn't hear fit more uniquely to the media it's licensed too.

Gone Jackals fit well with Full Throttle, and maybe they aren't the best band on their own, but they really worked within the game. Kind of embarassing, but I'm guilty of having gone nuts when I was in high school and bought all three Gone Jackals CDs (not just Bone to Pick, which was in the LucasArts catalog for a while). I traded them in to a store at some point along the years.

[ThunderPeel2001]

  Nevsky said:

Also, I think that the majority of the late-70s and 80s choices are too selective and not-obvious (I love the Motorhead and Judas Priest selections, definitely) for them to be constrained by budget, so I would guess that those eras are Schafer's/the music co-ordinator's periods of choice. I'm sure they would have been able to afford a Deep Purple track a least - especially if they can afford songs like The Beautiful People, which mustn't be a cheap one.

You would well be right, but surely they would have included a Led Zep tune if they could have afforded it?

  Quote

Schafer: Yeah, we had a little licensed music back in Full Throttle, like three songs. This is like a big song list, so we’re really proud of it, because we spent a lot of time planning just the perfect songs to fit the moment, and also songs I loved when I was a teenager, and maybe some new bands that I hadn’t even really heard of and mixing it all together to really kind of make that world come to life—it’s a huge list.

Also: "Every song in there is a completely sincere choice," he says.

Also also: 10 Heavy Metal Covers that Inspired Brutal Legend

I'm sure it's not the best list (where are the laser shooting panthers?) but notice Lita Ford! (Who also does the voice of the "Amazonian"/Kiss leader in the game.)

Also also also: European sales... Brutal Legend is straight in at number 7. (Is this good or bad?)

[Thrik]

Seems pretty good considering what it's up against. Apart from Need for Speed they're all new, hot releases.

[syntheticgerbil]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

Also also also: European sales... Brutal Legend is straight in at number 7. (Is this good or bad?)

Seeing as the games above it are usually expected to be top sellers, I think it's doing pretty damn good.

I would have liked it to beat Uncharted 2 though.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Apparently it had 191,000 pre-orders in the US (360 + PS3), whereas Uncharted 2 had 300,000 (PS3 only).

Here's my complete, out my arse, guess for worldwide sales for week one of BL: 500,000+.

[thl]

am I crazy or does Lita Halford have a little Morgan Webb thrown into her design?

I'm crazy, right?

[syntheticgerbil]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

Apparently it had 191,000 pre-orders in the US (360 + PS3), whereas Uncharted 2 had 300,000 (PS3 only).

Here's my complete, out my arse, guess for worldwide sales for week one of BL: 500,000+.

Well, then it already beat Grim Fandango if so. Let's hope it beats Full Throttle!

[80's Bad Guy]

Yeah I wish there was a little more Anthrax. At least a few tracks with Joey Belladonna's wailing would have been pretty sweet.

Brutal Legend itself is tough for me to analyze. The one-two punch of Uncharted and Brutal Legend have left me a pretty confused gamer actually. On one hand, Uncharted was the most spectacular experience I've had all year; amazing to look at and a thrill to play, on the other Brutal Legend is just alot more fun. But its hard to tell how much of that is objective; not only is Schafer one of the people responsible for my current obsession with gaming, but I also have a large collection of Cannibal Corpse t-shirts in my closet from high school. Its interesting to note that neither games multiplayer interests me in the least though. Both feel like novelty versions of existing multiplayer games, just different enough to be interesting, but not deep enough to warrant a significant investment of my time.

Anyway, I think Brutal Legend is one of those games I'll agree out loud is flawed but always secretly think to myself is perfect.

[Psych]

What was up with

  Reveal hidden contents

the time travel stuff? When Eddie first said he was from the future, it sounded like a throw away line. But then everyone keeps repeating it like it's gospel truth.

[gojeffygo]

  thl said:

am I crazy or does Lita Halford have a little Morgan Webb thrown into her design?

I'm crazy, right?

I didn't think of it until you said it but you are so right. Especially during her introduction right after she stabs the tire. I love all the homages in BL. The lift Banger with raz's voice and goggles was great. As was the wagon of bones paint job. Schafer is an f'ing iron chef; uses the same ingredients almost every time but with enough spice and panache to make a unique main course everytime.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Man, I'm getting the feeling that there's a split in the BL audience between those who have played against the AI in practice mode and learned just how brilliantly balanced the "RTS" gameplay actually is, and those that haven't (and probably won't).

I didn't even realise there was a "Rally Flag", and I've completed most of the ingame battles... The RF is one of the most important and useful tools you have! (It tells where all of your newly spawned units to make their way to.) It really feels like Space Giraffe all over again: Incredibly well-balanced gameplay left impenetrable to most users due to a lack of a really good tutorial.

Doh.

[MrHoatzin]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

Man, I'm getting the feeling that there's a split in the BL audience between those who have played against the AI in practice mode and learned just how brilliantly balanced the "RTS" gameplay actually is, and those that haven't (and probably won't).

I didn't even realise there was a "Rally Flag", and I've completed most of the ingame battles... The RF is one of the most important and useful tools you have! (It tells where all of your newly spawned units to make their way to.) It really feels like Space Giraffe all over again: Incredibly well-balanced gameplay left impenetrable to most users due to a lack of a really good tutorial.

Doh.

idlethumbstellsyouhowtoplaybrutallegendreallygood.info?

[Psych]

  ThunderPeel2001 said:

Man, I'm getting the feeling that there's a split in the BL audience between those who have played against the AI in practice mode and learned just how brilliantly balanced the "RTS" gameplay actually is, and those that haven't (and probably won't).

I didn't even realise there was a "Rally Flag", and I've completed most of the ingame battles... The RF is one of the most important and useful tools you have! (It tells where all of your newly spawned units to make their way to.) It really feels like Space Giraffe all over again: Incredibly well-balanced gameplay left impenetrable to most users due to a lack of a really good tutorial.

The rally flag hardly rescues BL's battle mechanic. While it's certainly a useful tool it doesn't change the fact that without a quick and easy method of selecting individual units this game ultimately becomes a contest of who can amass the largest blob of units.

[Murdoc]

  Psych said:

What was up with

  Reveal hidden contents

the time travel stuff? When Eddie first said he was from the future, it sounded like a throw away line. But then everyone keeps repeating it like it's gospel truth.

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Yeah, it was hilarious he thought it was mideval times because he's retarded, but then everyone in the game just thinks he's from the future... they further explain it in the story and not to spoil anything, but it's kind of dumb.

[ThunderPeel2001]

  Psych said:

The rally flag hardly rescues BL's battle mechanic. While it's certainly a useful tool it doesn't change the fact that without a quick and easy method of selecting individual units this game ultimately becomes a contest of who can amass the largest blob of units.

Hmm. I know what you mean, but there's other aspects to the gameplay/strategy that make up for the "horde attack" simplicity. I don't think it's an incredibly involved RTS (in fact I've been corrected and told it's actually an "action strategy"), just that you do need some sort of strategy to win. Sending over a massive group of units will just end in tears, for example. Previously I'd believed the whole "battle" gameplay was an structured and chaotic mess, but I was happy to discover I was wrong.

[thl]

After beating it on Normal difficulty last night, I have a few thoughts:

-I think it's a bit crap to include the unlocking of concept art as part of 100% completion. Unless you get very hung up on the battle portions of the campaign, you will need to either play mutliplayer or against the AI in order to get 100% completion (i had something like 7 out of 17 Ironheade unlocked when I found my last serpent). I dig that there's so much concept art in the game (and generally like everything i've unlocked so far), but shouldn't it be a bonus not a necessity?

-I also think that maybe this game is easier for people who have never played RTSs. I am not a RTS fan at all (I hate how I can't concentrate on any one thing at a time and constantly feel stress that I have no control over losing a long and painful game) but I felt like I just ran through all the battles in the single player game. Maybe because I spent most of my time on the battlefield itself, only spawning units when it occured to me (I used the rally flag a lot but never ever used any of the other battle-based solos) but mostly on the aggressive sending all my dudes toward the next resource point. I never had any problems with this strategy and think that maybe if I was more versed wit h this type of gameplay, I'd try to play it deeper and get frustrated (because it generally was a chaotic dash). There was only one point in the campaign where I remember having to address a single unit and by that point I had control over all the resources anyway so I had enough time to clumsily give my orders (which were definitely clumsy). Also, I really don't want to play against Brutal AI because I can definitely see how being on the losing end would frustrate the hell out of me.

-More importantly with the battle stuff though, I actually thought it fit the story and the world very well! fast, loose, and bloody seem like perfect descriptors for a rock n roll army to me and I actually enjoyed the rolling dustcloud of awesome that my dudes represented.

-The story is kind of embedded. I wasn't surprised because a lot of Psychonauts' story was the same way, where you can run across the whole map after every level and talk to all the kids and get these developing mini-threads between them. Seeking out the Legends plays a huge part in filling in all the stuff that seems wonky in the cut-scenes, but hey... does it have to make complete sense? I totally agree with the previous posters' comments about Eddie and Ophelia's fight scene being weak and the ending being unexpectedly brief however. I REALLY wanted to somehow

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defeat ophelia at the sea of black tears, then team up with her on a mighty homecoming tour to defeat the tainted coil and clean house. Having their whole occupation of Bladehenge not be used for story purposes

feels like a lost opportunity.

-the side missions are another missed opportunity for me. i found all of the formats to be fun the first time, but all of them were needlessly repetitive. The

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bat mission

was a great example of small one-off quests that could've populated the entire world, but instead they become a tedious task to clear out before moving on. I know it's weird to complain about a lack of diverse story design in a game where I feel its strongest suit is its story-driven design, but that just makes the side missions all the more sadder that they could've been a lot more.

-I know multiplayer games want to have plenty of multiplayer achievements, but it seems like they're pretty boring. I don't plan on playing the multiplayer with real people, but figuring a way to trick the AI into letting me surround 15 of their dudes in a ring of fire doesn't sound fun to me.

Enough griping. I really really enjoyed the game a lot. I guess I haven't been affected by the RTS shortcomings as much as others. I still don't really know how to do the power slide but everything else is pretty great I think. I'm not really into metal but my inner highschool industrial child was surpremely happy to hear Thieves, Stigmata, and KMFDM come on the radio. I think there should be some Led Zep on there but have repeatedly heard how reticent they are to grant permission for anything (except Cadillac ahem) so its a shame that we can't jam out to them while rolling through the hills (although the Bring It On Home solo makes quite a fitting homage to their influence). Overall the soundtrack is admirably huge and helps the games immersion quite a bit.

Great game! Not perfect, which is sad because it could've been!