Nappi Posted May 23, 2010 GrouchoClub said: This isn't the most appropriate venue for this question, but I must know what your new avatar comes from; it is the best. brkl's avatar is from Sam & Max The Tomb of Sammun-Mak. Looks great. Also, Deadly Premonition seems very interesting in a way. I should probably try watching the endurance run or something like that since I'm sure as hell not going to play this game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brkl Posted May 23, 2010 Indeed! I'm a walking billboard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snooglebum Posted May 24, 2010 Thompson said: While I love the whistle theme (Awesome version Thumbs!) the game itself looks terrible, not even so bad it's good, just bad.I do like watching the Endurance Run though and VJ are pretty good at it and add some real humor, if you get the time I heartily encourage you to watch the P4 Endurance Run, possibly the best time i've ever spent online. Getting all nostalgic about it now, i'm even seeing it in slow-motion and in black and white in my head. My life is a movie apparently. The game actually has a damn good soundtrack. "The Woods And The Goddess" is a beautiful song. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YzW3676KA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YzW3676KA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Also, the P4 endurance run is infuriating for me, as well as being hilarious. "VINNY, YOU MORON!!! BUY NEW EQUIPMENT, DAMNNIT!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patters Posted May 24, 2010 Snooglebum said: The game actually has a damn good soundtrack. "The Woods And The Goddess" is a beautiful song. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YzW3676KA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YzW3676KA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Also, the P4 endurance run is infuriating for me, as well as being hilarious. "VINNY, YOU MORON!!! BUY NEW EQUIPMENT, DAMNNIT!" It started sucking at about 1.40. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enterthewumpus Posted May 25, 2010 It looks like we'll get to see the ending of VJ's run tomorrow! Thompson said: I do like watching the Endurance Run though and VJ are pretty good at it and add some real humor, if you get the time I heartily encourage you to watch the P4 Endurance Run, possibly the best time i've ever spent online. I'd watched it up until the point at which the game stopped being a cutscene and started being a game, but then the Deadly Prem runs started, and I got distracted. I do worry though- do the ERs lose some of their quality when there are fewer cutscenes happening and more of just the 'playing a game'? It seemed that the Deadly Premonition Runs did, so I could see that happening with Persona 4, and there's a LOT more Persona to get through. Err, sorry for de-railing there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hermie Posted May 25, 2010 enterthewumpus said: It looks like we'll get to see the ending of VJ's run tomorrow!I'd watched it up until the point at which the game stopped being a cutscene and started being a game, but then the Deadly Prem runs started, and I got distracted. I do worry though- do the ERs lose some of their quality when there are fewer cutscenes happening and more of just the 'playing a game'? It seemed that the Deadly Premonition Runs did, so I could see that happening with Persona 4, and there's a LOT more Persona to get through. Err, sorry for de-railing there. Yeah, there are parts of it where they just have to grind through long dungeons. I usually watched it while grinding in a game myself, like WoW or Burnout: Paradise. <.< If you're not up for the 100+ hours, I believe there was a fan project on youtube to make a "best of", where they essentially cut out the parts where nothing happens. In fact, I think that's how Brad and Ryan were watching it. So, that's an option, I guess. (If you're a baby.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thompson Posted May 25, 2010 I don't know, I feel like watching all of it, even the undeniably boring stuff, makes it even more awesome when you finally get to the end and think "Holy shit, what a journey" as opposed to thinking "I'm a fucking baby for skipping the shit stuff". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enterthewumpus Posted May 25, 2010 I don't want to be a baby! (and that may be a good excuse for me to play Torchlight.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thompson Posted May 25, 2010 Oh god, I just watched VJ 37, Emily! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murdoc Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) Put that in a spoiler tag you bastard! Entire game ruined now EDIT: On Vj 36 and I never thought I'd say this about this game, but it just got stupid. Edited May 26, 2010 by Murdoc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snooglebum Posted May 27, 2010 Thompson said: Oh god, I just watched VJ 37, Emily! Arrrrrgh! Spoiler! You ruined the ending, and now I hate you! I have made a song about hating you! That is how much I hate you! http://tindeck.com/listen/bxwm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoChorus Posted May 27, 2010 Even though in my first post I made a point of not linking to my website, I will spam here. For good reason though I think, I interviewed Swery and sort of immediately asked him the most obvious question. He seemed kind of mad but my questions were translated into japanese and his answers were translated back into English so maybe a little something is lost. Man, I really enjoyed the game in the same way I enjoyed the newest series of twilight zone or the movies of Frank Henenlotter. There is so much enthusiasm and ideas there that you can sort of ignore the technical failings or even think they are sort of endearing. This is a pretty condescending attitude though, I think what I really mean is that it is inspiring to see how little common sense and conventional wisdom played into what Swery believed they could achieve with the game. Despite him being sensitive about it, I would love to have seen the even more Twin Peaksy version. The Giant Bomb playthroughs have made this game a lot easier for more people to enjoy, I have to play a ton of games so I don't think I could have devoted the time or indeed the patience to playing this myself. The MST3K dynamic works pretty perfectly for games and VJ were a lot better at it than say the retsuprae guys. Controller swapping style co-op (Vinnie had soul control but you know what I mean) is my favourite way to play games and the endurance run of Deadly Premonition is the perfect example of why that is. I may thinking Army of Two: Bro Harder was an average cover based shooter but I played most of it through tears of laughter with my flatmate. And it wasn't even necessarily mocking the game a lot of the time, it was just kind of being jackasses. I am glad this Endurance Run managed to both showcase this bizarre game and also provide such a sterling example of why that way of playing is so awesome. Oh and here's the interview if you're still interested, sorry for link whoring, I just really think the idea of both Deadly Premonition and Endurance Run are so interesting. http://tinyurl.com/2fx4pvr Why could anyone see happening with the sequel? Jeff made a good point about the origion of the Red Seeds being played out but most of the characters being dead. I wonder if another cult game of this sort will arise soon. Hopefully, that might mean another interesting sort of critical conversation that this game has sparked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thompson Posted May 27, 2010 Snooglebum said: Arrrrrgh! Spoiler! You ruined the ending, and now I hate you! I have made a song about hating you! That is how much I hate you! http://tindeck.com/listen/bxwm Oopsie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murdoc Posted May 27, 2010 Vj -37 Dumb. I was fun with all the goofy zany stuff, but this last act is really inconsistent with itself and the characters. The switch between some characters and the sudden retardation of York is disappointing... same goes with the game-play; say what you will, but it really gets into epic video gamey, which I mean the mega thing at the end is actually pretty hilarious but not really inline with the theme they were selling through out the game. Furthermore: Reveal hidden contents Why does the story keep going?! lol. Also, I know it's crazy zombie tree, but really if someone cut a hole in me and stuck a plant in it, even if it started to magically root, I think, just maybe, I'd go see the wizard doctor to see what could be done before asking someone to kill me. I guess the Zach, York twist should be kind of neat, but it doesn't really impact anything at all, not even our perception of York... so pointless I guess. Should be neat somehow though. Also the dad gives the kid a big schpeal about killing someone you love but then ends of saying even if I couldn't do it. So wouldn't that lead the the fact that killing the wife/emily would do nothing? Anyway it looks like even that wouldn't have done anything because it probably all went to the same point regardless, but I still would have shot Kaysen since his dad didn't back then which allows all this crap to happen. Also not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Claw Posted May 31, 2010 Murdoc said: Furthermore: Reveal hidden contents I guess the Zach, York twist should be kind of neat, but it doesn't really impact anything at all, not even our perception of York... so pointless I guess. Should be neat somehow though. It impacts everything. Reveal hidden contents It is a moment of self discovery where York, the alternate personality that has been guiding, helping and comforting Zach (who is congruent with the player) throughout his personal struggle departs, leaving Zach/the player to confront the the repressed memory that gave York his existence. It is the moment that the player comes to fully understand the character they are playing. This is why the final choice is in the 1st person. . Murdoc said: Reveal hidden contents Also the dad gives the kid a big schpeal about killing someone you love but then ends of saying even if I couldn't do it. So wouldn't that lead the the fact that killing the wife/emily would do nothing? Reveal hidden contents Xander Morgan doesn't kill his wife. He aims at Kaysen. Kaysen is supernatural and impervious to bullets. His wife dead and Kaysen unkillable, your dad's only way out is to take his own life. He tells young Zach to make the right choice (i.e. to shoot Emily), but Zach can't do that either. Throughout the whole game you thought your dad killed your mom, but actually Kaysen killed your mom. It is this realisation that causes York to be redundant, and the player to truly know Agent Morgan. Murdoc said: Also not Maybe this is you telling me not to believe anything you said. Not sure. This game is all metaphors. When you gun down zombies in crazy-time land it's not real - you're fighting off the effects of the gas on your mind, battling personal demons, Reveal hidden contents many of which bark slowed down phrases that your mother and Emily say just before their deaths which makes for a powerful 'would you kindly' level impact in the endgame , and hiding from the raincoat killer who is the manifestation of your fear. Holding your breath makes the bad things go away because you're no longer inhaling the gas, and smoking reduces the influence of the player/Zach over Agent Morgan. Colour is important too. The red room represents malice, the green room nurturing, reality is blue (blue skies), and the white room is a neutral space between all three. The twins at the start of the game wear green and blue shirts or have green and blue feathers and are the only characters to share the same first letter in their names. They represent a bridge between reality and the green room Reveal hidden contents which is why Kaysen takes an unhealthy interest in them and why George wanted them to see the corpse of Anna. This game is more than just "MAN ITS SO CRAZY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT! IT MUST BE GOOD BECAUSE IT IS BAD OR JUST PLAIN BAD!" It's some of the most powerful and profound storytelling in games I've yet seen. Unlike Bioshock's one-twist "gotcha!" this game explores the schizophrenic relationship between the player and their on-screen avatar and uses that to heighten the impact of its story. That multiple personality vibe doesn't stop with Agent Morgan, though, it's woven expertly throughout the game world, the characters and the investigation itself. It's only confusing or crazy if you miss the point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murdoc Posted May 31, 2010 PorousWalrus said: It impacts everything. Reveal hidden contents It is a moment of self discovery where York, the alternate personality that has been guiding, helping and comforting Zach (who is congruent with the player) throughout his personal struggle departs, leaving Zach/the player to confront the the repressed memory that gave York his existence. It is the moment that the player comes to fully understand the character they are playing. This is why the final choice is in the 1st person. . Yeah... I wasn't feeling that though. I assumed Zach was the player the entire time and when that switch happens nothing in the game changes , making it just seem like a pointless narrative switch. Reveal hidden contents We already knew Morgan snapped during the night his mother died, so nothing was added to find out that the switch was opposite to what we assumed... this is what I meant by it should be neat, but really wasn't as it didn't contribute anything different then what we already knew. It was a "twist" in the story I guess, but really didn't ultimately impact anything except for some dialog changes between them. I suppose a sequel would allow more actual differences to occur. Also I don't buy into the whole thing is effects on your mind with some things, as it seems to play fast and lose with what is real and what isn't in that case with a lot of inconsistencies. The raincoat killer for example, seemed to be pretty real and physical, considering Harry's recollection of his father and the whole thing with George... unless that wasn't real either; but nothing alluded to this, so it seems like a rubber stamp you could put on anything that didn't quite make sense. Quote Reveal hidden contents Xander Morgan doesn't kill his wife. He aims at Kaysen. Kaysen is supernatural and impervious to bullets. His wife dead and Kaysen unkillable, your dad's only way out is to take his own life. He tells young Zach to make the right choice (i.e. to shoot Emily), but Zach can't do that either. Throughout the whole game you thought your dad killed your mom, but actually Kaysen killed your mom. It is this realisation that causes York to be redundant, and the player to truly know Agent Morgan. I didn't pick that up, lol, so yeah that makes more sense. Those I think the very inclusion of Reveal hidden contents Kaysen being the mastermind didn't really sync up with the rest of the narrative and felt heavily tacked on when they ran out of characters to use. Quote Maybe this is you telling me not to believe anything you said. Not sure. This game is all metaphors. When you gun down zombies in crazy-time land it's not real - you're fighting off the effects of the gas on your mind, battling personal demons, Reveal hidden contents many of which bark slowed down phrases that your mother and Emily say just before their deaths which makes for a powerful 'would you kindly' level impact in the endgame , and hiding from the raincoat killer who is the manifestation of your fear. Holding your breath makes the bad things go away because you're no longer inhaling the gas, and smoking reduces the influence of the player/Zach over Agent Morgan. I wrote something longer and deleted it, forgot the "also not" line. Anyway, show me where the zombies were ever explained like that in the game(could happen, I only watched VJ play through it) and I'll give a nod. Until then, it's pure speculation. I could speculate York is actually fucking crazy, making up those scenarios in his mind just like he made up Zach... how he was ever admitted to the FBI is beyond me. Quote Colour is important too. The red room represents malice, the green room nurturing, reality is blue (blue skies), and the white room is a neutral space between all three. The twins at the start of the game wear green and blue shirts or have green and blue feathers and are the only characters to share the same first letter in their names. They represent a bridge between reality and the green room Reveal hidden contents which is why Kaysen takes an unhealthy interest in them and why George wanted them to see the corpse of Anna. I wouldn't say it's important as there would have been better care given to the colour design across the board to help the aesthetic, but interesting little points you mention about key narrative objects and colour. Though again, what is this trying to say? It doesn't add anything at all or unlock hidden clues early on... From the VJ play through, there is absolutely nothing in there that would have been used as a clue if you use this decipher from the beginning... so what's the point? Someone spent some time doing that with no real pay off. Quote This game is more than just "MAN ITS SO CRAZY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT! IT MUST BE GOOD BECAUSE IT IS BAD OR JUST PLAIN BAD!" It's some of the most powerful and profound storytelling in games I've yet seen. Unlike Bioshock's one-twist "gotcha!" this game explores the schizophrenic relationship between the player and their on-screen avatar and uses that to heighten the impact of its story. That multiple personality vibe doesn't stop with Agent Morgan, though, it's woven expertly throughout the game world, the characters and the investigation itself. It's only confusing or crazy if you miss the point. I think there is a bunch of "its so crazy for the sake of crazy" as it seems to have that Japanese sensibility about things... which I suppose isn't fair to call crazy, but coming from a North American perspective where shit happens for no discernible reason in their media I'll roll with that term. It has a neat little story, but far from powerful/profound storytelling in games. From a game design point of view, nothing about it did anything differently then every other game telling a story. Walk to a location, trigger cutscene, repeat. The story itself has a lot of influences, most notably being Twin Peaks, Resident Evil/Silent Hill themes. That doesn't mean it isn't good, for the most part it was and has more interesting influences then most games. However, the final act was just a mess of mystery cliches mix with video-gamey ridiculousness. The one thing I gave props to was the relationship between character and player, but they completely destroy that in the end. Reveal hidden contents York or Zach is not the player. We assumed he was talking to us the entire time of the game, but the end clearly defines these are two separate in-game personalities, neither of which are the player. The dialog between Zach and York during this time reinforces the fact that we weren't Zach and are now being introduced to his character... all of which there is very little difference(understandably with the amount of time we spend with him). This is reinforced by the game-play where there is zero difference between York Morgan and Zach Morgan. If Zach was the breaking the 4th wall(?) and was us all along, then I imagine there would be some significant different in options or control between the two, somehow. Like I said, I enjoyed whatever was going on in the game, and probably more then I should have due to the low budget execution and the really poor game design choices. I think the final act really destroyed the narrative/mood they were shooting for with the rest of the game, but I can say that about almost every video game, video game endings are usually just bad. I think there was a lot of crazy unexplained stuff, narrative points that just happened for no reason, and general wackiness... which makes it a bit more endearing, honestly. I'll also say that it might actually explain that stuff somewhere in the game, but it's probably a few hits of dialog after discovering something or text somewhere. But I'll really need to hear your case for profound storytelling in a game... then again you added the "I've seen in a game" so yeah, I guess that could be true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orv Posted June 1, 2010 I feel like I'm reading a declassified military document. . . Also, Snoogle, best song ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brkl Posted June 1, 2010 Reveal hidden contents Murdoc, come on, the zombies only appear when there's purple mist everywhere, and when you kill them they disappear into purple mist. They can't see you if you don't breathe. They kill you by shoving their hand down your throat and then sort of get vacuumed completely into you. The game tells you the purple mist has an effect on people and appears when it rains. The zombies only appear when it rains as well. All this is the game telling you the zombies are caused by the mist. Also, regarding Kaysen. York mentions the letters "F K" being formed in his coffee right at the beginning. When you meet Kaysen York reminds you of this. The guy walks around holding a damn red sapling. The game gives you strong hints that he's bad news, but obfuscates them with his mannerisms. It's still really cumbersome and badly presented. It's hardly a masterpiece, but at least when it comes to the main storyline it's not random at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murdoc Posted June 1, 2010 brkl said: Reveal hidden contents Murdoc, come on, the zombies only appear when there's purple mist everywhere, and when you kill them they disappear into purple mist. They can't see you if you don't breathe. They kill you by shoving their hand down your throat and then sort of get vacuumed completely into you. The game tells you the purple mist has an effect on people and appears when it rains. The zombies only appear when it rains as well. All this is the game telling you the zombies are caused by the mist. Also, regarding Kaysen. York mentions the letters "F K" being formed in his coffee right at the beginning. When you meet Kaysen York reminds you of this. The guy walks around holding a damn red sapling. The game gives you strong hints that he's bad news, but obfuscates them with his mannerisms. It's still really cumbersome and badly presented. It's hardly a masterpiece, but at least when it comes to the main storyline it's not random at all. That was my assumption on the zombies as well, not the metaphorical effects on the mind theory that was offered. Though I think that is the most rational explanation it also doesn't explain why York never mentions it or is even off put by it. Also, Reveal hidden contents Zombies happen around the dark world, which I guess is the purple mist even if there doesn't seem to be a lot of purple mist around at the time, but it doesn't need to be raining for it to happen as it happens a lot without rain. Not to mention the treasure sites(whatever) where horrible things happened seem to always have zombies in them. So the whole rain = mist = zombie thing seems to be inconsistent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thompson Posted June 2, 2010 Murdoc said: That was my assumption on the zombies as well, not the metaphorical effects on the mind theory that was offered. Though I think that is the most rational explanation it also doesn't explain why York never mentions it or is even off put by it.Also, Reveal hidden contents Zombies happen around the dark world, which I guess is the purple mist even if there doesn't seem to be a lot of purple mist around at the time, but it doesn't need to be raining for it to happen as it happens a lot without rain. Not to mention the treasure sites(whatever) where horrible things happened seem to always have zombies in them. So the whole rain = mist = zombie thing seems to be inconsistent That was also my assumption about the zombies, I wonder why Reveal hidden contents Emily wasn't particularly irked by the zombies either . Not sure if that needed spoiler tags but thanks to Snoogle i'm being extra careful now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twmac Posted June 2, 2010 Arrrgh, I need to get back to playing this game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snooglebum Posted June 2, 2010 Orvidos said: I feel like I'm reading a declassified military document. . .Also, Snoogle, best song ever. Thank you! I just wanted to emphasize angry I was. Also, plot points are being slowly revealed, through putting spoiler tags a bit too late in a paragraph. I'm glad I finished the video runs before this thread started being censored by the military. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted November 24, 2010 The game was released in Europe recently... thanks for the spoiler guys... you could have edited the bloody post, dammit! Anyway, when I bought I thought it would be... terrible in an awesome way? The "Santa Claus VS. the Martians" of games? But... I'm beginning to legitimately like the game.... It's the only survival horror game with an open world! I actually fished at every fishing spot. I even got the high score for the dartboard game and I never bother with that stuff... And I lose my patience so easily with cars and bad controls... yet I don't mind it here.. what is going on! And to make things stranger... it's actually kinda scary! Other horror games piss me off because it's a non-stop rattling of chains and moans and cheap scares, but in this game, with an open world that's safe, it makes the scary parts scarier... I think I already have the best weapon in the game and some areas still freak me out! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I_smell Posted November 25, 2010 Maybe I'm a baby, but the bit at the end Reveal hidden contents with emily is the most unsettling thing I've ever seen in a game. I didn't expect it at all, I spent most of the game laughing, and expected some cheap hero ending, or maybe someone dies or something. But for you to Reveal hidden contents hand over Emily (who it took me a long time to like- I hated her for the first half of the game but she totally won me over later on), then she gets raped in a basement by an obese dripping wet monster dude for 3 days and is clearly drugged or something when you find her, and then the seed roots itself from inside her and slowly busts out; it's fucking horrible. And the only guy left who you trusted was a gross alien rapist overlord from another dimension the whole time. Everyone got drugged at some point, half the town was in this awful sex-cult, the sherrif's a fucking psychopath, it all comes out of nowhere. It's like your watching the guys from Animal House suddenly put in a Saw situation. Even after the end, Reveal hidden contents half the town's dead, and everyone else is a 2-dimensional character, so basically nothing will ever happen in Greenvale again. And York's a complete fucking nutcase anyway! Basically Reveal hidden contents nothing happy or good happens and everything is horrible until the end of forever. After the whole ending I felt physically sick. It's like- I'm playing Ratchet & Clank and after about 8 hours someone gets their skin torn off or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
