Radiant Silvergun XBLA

[Sno]

People actually complain about the length of arcade games?

Yes, this happens all the time. If you look beyond insular communities of arcade game fans and see how broader audiences react to these things, you will see it happen without fail. People will brute force through on infinite continues to the end of a shooter and wonder why they should have paid 10 dollars for something that takes 40 minutes to finish. (Let alone 40-60 bucks.) "Well now i've seen everything in the game, why would i ever replay it?" is literally the full depth of the argument.

Other times it's more the idea that because it's a 2d game, it must have been easier to develop, and should be cheap. Senko no Ronde was ripped apart in the western critical community on grounds like this. It's a top-down 2d game, so clearly it should have been on XBLA for 10 bucks, not a retail release. (This doesn't even make sense, read some of the reviews people wrote about that game, it's completely insane!)

You know, but SF4 and the re-emergence of 2D fighting games has changed a lot of this latter perception, there isn't nearly as much ghettoizing of the 2D genres.

One of the reasons arcade games work is due to it's fast pace and shortness! I can't help but to notice that when they try to shoehorn and arcade game into a "full title" the game always fails miserably.

Scrolling shooters are designed to be difficult and encourage mastery and high-score chasing, so they need to be concise and immaculate, there is no room for shoddy filler content. That's basically it, i don't think people appreciate how much effort goes into making those games perfect. (The good ones, at least.)

Has anybody else tried Outland? I do think it's relevant to mention here since it's a BULLET HELL METROIDVANIA!

It looks pretty amazing, a few people i know have been raving about it to me, describing it as Ikaruga meets Castlevania.

[Tanukitsune]

While continues makes arcade games too easy, I still think they are necessary. I'd have rather have an arcade game with free play and beat using 6 continues and then try better next time, than one with 2 that would frustrate me.

It's probable that I would master the game either way if I really wanted to, but I don't think modern gamers want to "master" a game unless they get an achievement for it.

The unlockable credit system is good, by the time you unlock free play, you don't really need it anymore.

Are you sure about 2D fighters? People are saying the new Mortal Kombat game is making SSFIV look bad because it has so many more hours of "extra content". Then again, the average gamer will whine if any game is less than 60 hours long and never appreciate the effort put into it. (We didn't appreciate the effort put in game before either, but at least we didn't whine about the length.)

[Sno]

While continues makes arcade games too easy, I still think they are necessary. I'd have rather have an arcade game with free play and beat using 6 continues and then try better next time, than one with 2 that would frustrate me.

It's probable that I would master the game either way if I really wanted to, but I don't think modern gamers want to "master" a game unless they get an achievement for it.

The unlockable credit system is good, by the time you unlock free play, you don't really need it anymore.

I feel like continues are contrary to the nature of these games, simply reaching the end isn't the point. You should be striving to beat your own high scores. So if you lose? Log your score, start over, try harder.

Egh, I don't know. Bumping up the number of continues for every hour or so of play is probably the best solution, because then it's there for the people who really, really want it, but it still at first encourages them to try and play through without a crutch.

Are you sure about 2D fighters? People are saying the new Mortal Kombat game is making SSFIV look bad because it has so many more hours of "extra content".

I think you either misread what i said or don't realize that MK9 is a 2D fighting game.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Sno

[Tanukitsune]

I feel like continues are contrary to the nature of these games. High scores are all that really matter, so if you lose? Log your high score, start over, try harder.

I think you either misread what i said or don't realize that MK9 is a 2D fighting game.

I think I did? Were you trying to say the new 2D fighting are making the new age gamers be OK with shorter games? Or just with shorter arcade games in general?

I don't think I get the "ghettoizing" analogy meaning here at all.

I've never been that much of a perfectionist, while I love it when I perform well in a game and beat it without using any or barely any continues and I get a great score, I don't fret when I'm not.

Think of it as a test, with limited continues you fail the test the moment you make a mistake but with free play you get to finish the test, you just get a lower score. It's either choosing between a "Pass of Fail" test or a graded one.

I'm more inclined to try to "improve my grades" with the later test. It's easier, many are likely to happy with the grade they get and never take the test again, but I personally think more people will be willing to "take the test again" this way.

Then again, even as a kid I always thought that arcade games should have at least a few continues. Back then I said that why would I pay 50€ for a game with no continues when I can go to the arcade and spend much less to beat the game? While I no longer have an arcade, I think an arcade game should come with some credits at least, I feel ripped off when they don't. So I guess it's more of a value issue than a challenge one?

[Sno]

I think I did? Were you trying to say the new 2D fighting are making the new age gamers be OK with shorter games? Or just with shorter arcade games in general?

I don't think I get the "ghettoizing" analogy meaning here at all.

Jeez, dude. You're conflating different parts of my post.

[Tanukitsune]

Oh, ghettozing means "cheap"? I should have understood it with the context anyway, sorry.

Man, we're really derailing the thread, I think it's safe to say the average gamer is a little spoiled?

EDIT: I've played a few hours of Outland and it sure is Ikaruga-vania, it's not as ridiculously frantic as a bullet hell, at least not so far, but the bullets are everywhere and they don't stop. It's also the most challenging game I've played since Super Meat Boy or Demon's Souls.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Tanukitsune

[twmac]

Need to sit down and play Outland seriously. I really liked the visual style and played the first 3 levels.

The I got distracted by Hardcorps: uprising and Trouble Witches NEO!

They are just solid shooters that I can switch my brain off to and let my reflexes take over. Neither are spectacular, but very much worth playing.

[Raff]

I'm having a lot of fun with Bangai-O HD, never played the previous ones. It's one of those great, really precise Japanese games that's bastard hard but totally fair. You're incredibly vulnerable and incredibly powerful at the same time, you only die when you screw up and you can always see what went wrong.

[Sno]

So Treasure just announced that the Radiant Silvergun XBLA port will have both versions of the game, the arcade version and the Saturn version. (The differences being that the Saturn version is remixed and has a lot of story-telling not present in the Arcade original.)

It's also been confirmed that the game will be priced at 1200 points. (15$)

[Kolzig]

Gah, still the XBLA keeps tempting me. Why oh why must all the great Saturn and Dreamcast games appear there! 360 itself has no interesting games for me, but they keep striking gold with these XBLA releases.

[Tanukitsune]

So? If it has enough good XBLA games you want doesn't mean it's worth getting?

[Kolzig]

Yeah it would, but I have to keep myself in control.

No time for that when I have the mountains of PC, Wii, DS, PSP and older stuff still to play...

Old me would've propably already bought that and kept growing the pile of backlog.

[Raff]

Looks like it'll be one of the few upressed games that actually looks better for it.

[twmac]

Damn that looks nice.

On a side note, a friend and I pushed through Trouble Witches NEO! by coin feeding it. It has grown on me massively as I figured out all of the little hooks in the game.

For starters I only just realised that the circle and star in the middle of the character is the only hit box point (I felt stupid when I finally noticed). The characters secondary move which slows down bullets must be triggered at the right time with a hope of killing the enemy that generated the bullets. If the enemy is killed all its bullets of a certain type will immediately turn into coins.

The coins can be spent on special cards, these need to be used duting certain points to trigger larger combos for more bonus coins.

There seems to be more to that last system but I haven't figure that out yet, the localisation is deliciously awful, but that also means that the tutorials are not much cop.

[Sno]

For starters I only just realised that the circle and star in the middle of the character is the only hit box point (I felt stupid when I finally noticed).

Most bullet hell games will do this, have some visual indication of the actual hitbox. Sometimes it's really obvious like it is in that game, but sometimes it actually is pretty easy to miss. (A few games will line the hitbox up with the cockpit of the player's ship, for example.)

[twmac]

I was aware of this and that is why I felt so stupid for missing the glowing star and circle right in the middle of the character.

Compared to Guwange and Raiden, it is like a giant beacon.

[Sno]

So in addition to having both the Arcade version and the Saturn version of the game, sounds like Treasure is going to be including a brand new "Ikaruga" mode in Radiant Silvergun XBLA.

[Sno]

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2011/05/treasure_inspired_by_castle_cr.php

I found this all fairly interesting.

[twmac]

I don't reckon they will make a sequel, but really they should hurry up and get this game out.

I no longer have my Saturn copy to play anymore.

[Sno]

I don't reckon they will make a sequel,

I'm sure it depends entirely on how well it does. I mean, Sin and Punishment 2 exists because of the interest the virtual console re-release of the original generated. (Also, S&P2 is so, soo good. If you have access to a Wii, you should play it.)

Treasure has shown they're no longer adverse to sequels, which... I don't know, i'm not sure i'm happy about that. The reason Treasure is so well regarded is because they're willing to spin old-school designs off in crazy directions, but a lot of what they've done in recent years is ports and sequels.

I'm extremely happy to be getting a version of Radiant Silvergun that i don't have to jump through hoops to play, but... there was also the Ikaruga port, this Guardian Heroes port, Missile Fury was the third (arguably fourth) Bangai-O game, and then Sin and Punishment 2.

I think Treasure runs the risk of digging themselves into a rut.

[Sno]

Hey again, Radiant Silvergun topic!

Saturn-style fake transparency, fuck yeah!

In random shmupping news is this, which looks completely amazing.

[Tanukitsune]

Since the Japanese PSN store, this is the perfect time to resurrect the thread since we can finally buy import shmips from them again!

I had some money left over from before the PSN was down so I got Blaster Master (on the Sunsoft Memorial Series), which is run n' gun (Close enogh?)

But I'm so going to buy some shmups when I get my next PSN card!

[miffy495]

Is this where people talk about shmups now?

So, Jamestown. After seeing the Giant Bomb quick look of this game, I had to have it. It went cheap on the Steam sale, so I picked it up then, but it's regularly $10 and it's pretty good value for that. I bought it for the batshit weird story premise, but have since found it to be a really good introductory shmup. I'm especially fond of the way that it gently encourages you to bump up to higher difficulty settings. There are 5 levels in the game, but the easy difficulty setting only lets you play the first 3. When you do that, it says that to play the fourth you need to finish the first 3 on medium, and then to play the fifth you need to play the other 4 on hard. It's both lengthened game time and gotten me much better at this game than I thought I'd be at the beginning. I know this has been on other people's Steam wish list, as it tells me that friends are interested in the game, and I was wondering if anyone else had picked it up and what they thought of it?

[Sno]

Jamestown looks pretty incredible, i haven't played it though.

[SiN]

I've been playing it and having a blast!

I play shmups quite often, so I'm not a complete noob, but I'm not very good at them either. Like you Miffy, I found that it had a really nice difficulty curve. I started out playing the levels on the second difficulty, and it felt challenging without being too frustrating.

The art style is obviously gorgeous, but what gets mentioned less is that the music (and sfx) are really good too.

The best part though, is that it's very interesting from a mechanics POV. And that's really why I love shmups. The spread/special fire, triggering vaunt, maintaining it, and trading vaunt for extra shields are all really great.

And actually, the mechanics and difficult level work really well together. So on easiest, all you need to know is "fire". As you climb the difficulty levels you go from "need to be familiar with the mechanics" to "must use the mechanics very well" all in a fairly smooth manner.

In short: two thumbs up from me, for hardcore shmup players and noobs alike.