Blue sky in American games?

[Lu]

they got over the phase of having an emo whiny baby for hero

Now they're just whiny.

[Twig]

Do indie games count? 'Cause there're too many to bother listing if indie games count.

I also don't really get what you're talking about. Yes, a good deal of Western games (American or otherwise) tend to take themselves more seriously than Japanese games, but that doesn't really make them dark. (I'm going to pretend the "America only" rule doesn't exist, because appealing to "the West" doesn't just mean emulating American games, and plenty of big hits come from Europe or Canada. Plus, I feel like most of the games I really like come from outside America anyway, somehow.)

Darksiders is much more like a comic book than it is a grimdark tale of woe and despair.

The Half-Life series takes itself very seriously, but would anyone really call it gritty?

Prince of Persia, barring the abysmal Warrior Within (and probably also The Two Thrones, but not as much).

On the other hand, Portal, I guess, is pretty grim. U:

If old games count, I could list a billion super old PC games. But I won't. That wouldn't be fair.

Freedom Force. Just Cause 2. Oddworld series. Everything Popcap.

[Tanukitsune]

I'm not sure we should count indie games, we are talking if we can blame Japan for viewing Western games like I mentioned, Japan is as unaware of western indie games as we are of their indie games, we are talking about the general view.

When Japan makes a game for the West, they make it "American", or North American, has Japan made a game that feels or looks European? If you can find a game from Japan that's made for the West and has a European flavor then it counts, if not it doesn't.

Sure, cheerful Western games exist, but the real question is if they are in general dark, gritty and gory?

A spoonful of cheeriness in a barrel of grim still makes a barrel of grim.

[Patters]

Ok then Japanese games are cheerful, let us take skies of arcadia as an example. The visuals are very "cheerful" but the game itself has a large amount of dark material: genocide, poverty, sacrifice, etc. A game targeted at Japan. Stop making sweeping generalisations.

[Tanukitsune]

I didn't use that game as an example, and I think that I said it before, if we're going down that route, then there is no such thing as a cheerful game because even Tetris is terrible when you think of it as block genocide.

Games need a conflict or obstacle to resolve, so yes, there is likely to be "bad stuff happening" or else the hero wouldn't need to intervene, the difference is how you portray the conflict and it's resolution.

Let's take Red Dead Redemption, it's a beautiful game and well written, but the world is definitely not "happy" and the game does want you to feel happy... If you rescued a puppy in Red Dead Redemption, you'd find out the owner is training it to be a fighter and is likely to torture for fun and profit...

It all depends on how you approach the subject, does the game approach the subject and shove it down your throat and yell "A TERRIBLE THING HAPPENED! YOU WILL NEVER GET OVER IT!" or does it say "A terrible thing happened, but thanks to you, the hero, I am somewhat at peace now".

I'm not sure if a game that features genocide or slavery can be considered cheerful, but most games have genocide and/or slavery when you think about it.... Pokémon is ALL about slavery, they encourage you to enslave and capture wild animals for your amusement, if you put it that way, it's a messed up game, but the average consensus about that game is that's it's pretty saccharine.

Of course, how positive or negative you see a game is is subjective, and maybe people see Red Dead Redemption as a cheerful game and maybe they think Kirby's games are dark and depressing.

The thing is, this all about general views, it seems that some people in Japan thing, in general that Western games are bleak and gory, the question is are they right?

From I've read so far, everybody here seems to disagree, since everybody is jumping to the defense of the Western game. I personally think you guys are right, Western games aren't as bleak as that, but I also say that I can't blame them, they see games like Gear of War making millions, so they assume that's what the West wants.

Where did I make a sweeping generalization? Did I ever say ALL Japanese are puppies and rainbows? I'm pretty sure I mentioned that some of the most serious and bleak games I know of actually come from Japan too. I just beat Demon's Souls, I could never say that game is cheerful, it would definitely be on my top list of bleak games.

[Kolzig]

Of course, how positive or negative you see a game is is subjective, and maybe people see Red Dead Redemption as a cheerful game and maybe they think Kirby's games are dark and depressing.

Kirby eats other characters! Cannibal of the rainbow world!

[Tanukitsune]

Kirby eats other characters! Cannibal of the rainbow world!

They don't even fight back in Epic Yarn! He's just a pyscho!

[syntheticgerbil]

To me this is all really a statement of art direction and not really to do with the subject matter of the game, as that gets so particular and can be argued any way with whatever game you choose.

I think the problem with the grit and brown in American games (and their 3D art) is that everyone is so enamoured here with uninspired wrinkly zbrush character models and layering on realistic textures upon realistic textures from cgtextures.com for different effects because that equals success, at least on the 3D gathering forums like polycount.com. It's not necessarily inspired but that kind status quo usage of 3D art asset creation is easier to get a pat on the back for. On top of that, brown, grit, wrinkles, and other ridiculous detail hides mistakes and bad form or construction very well.

I equate it to the obsession that Image comic creators had in the early 90s where overdrawing = good. They could cover up the fact that most of those jerks could not draw an anatomically correct human to save their life on top of no idea how to make proper backgrounds and settings. To do this, all they had to do was add tons and tons of black lines all over the page until most was obscured. The fact that so much work was put into black lines gets the layman to ooh and aah at what was done. It's kind of like creating any piece of art by stippling: anyone can do it, it's tedious and boring, yet when you are done, everyone will exclaim, "Amazing! That must have taken forever!"

So if you go backwards to earlier Japanese console games like Sonic, you'll see it's really all very stripped down, using basic shiny gradients and rounder forms that aren't exactly interesting in themselves, but in how they are arranged. Even LucasArts games tend to look more beautiful than any Sierra counterpart for the same reason. Sierra games tended to throw everything at the wall in a gaudy fashion while LucasArts seemed to take more care into making their pixel art and scanned art work well at the resolution it was made to be at. The Dig would be a great example of this I think while not being a blue sky all the way around.

The problem with the more basic form and more colorful approach is that all your flaws are easily shown and you have nothing to cover them up with. You can easily fuck up any color theory rules shown by games like Zool or any other similar rainbow vomit Amiga game. Plus, badly inspired or constructed characters are put under a magnifying lens.

To go back to the comic book analogy, I equate it Mike Mignola. So while his stuff is always dark in manner, it is completely different from the Image big shots. Everything he does now is all parred down to basic forms and only enough information, making construction a monumental task. In interviews Mignola is constantly talking about how he starts over or ends up unsatisfied with a lot of his work because of how much thought goes into composition sketch rather than carrying out the final work itself.

So I guess to sum it all up, to me it just always seems to be a matter of art fads and how they can stifle or shine good or bad artists. I don't think brown or saturated color/textured or smooth much of a difference in the end outside of how they are ultimately handled.

I guess this topic was started because of the buzz with few Japanese designers (don't remember their names) openly stating they are targeting American tastes?

[Tanukitsune]

I'm not sure if we've ever talked about Japanese designers targeting a Western audience before, but yeah, it's basically that.

What you've mentioned just made me remind something I heard on a podcast (Giant Bomb?), I heard that many games use Unreal Engine and that it's default texture maps are the "dark n' gritty" ones, and after looking at the list of Unreal Engine games, I think that might be another reason we have "gritty" games.

I guess that adds to your "games are gritty because they are easier to make" theory.

I don't know if it's an art fad, doesn't that mean it will eventually will go away? I guess time will tell.

[syntheticgerbil]

I really have no idea how the Unreal Engine works. I would think default textures would be blank and naked, but maybe not? Maybe it has a certain library where many pictures and variables are added depending on what you are making or implementing?

I think the fad is already starting to go away since many seem to already make fun of games for looking so brown and unsaturated among other things, it seems like audiences are ready for something new and then maybe the next trend in art direction will come by. Just a guess though. It would be awful alternatively is games become increasingly monochromatic with black lines and dirt all over everything to the point where you can't even see what you are playing, but that seems hard to sustain.

[Thrik]

Unreal Engine certainly makes producing a dirty, dark game a streamlined affair. It's default texture and lighting configurations are geared towards the games Unreal Engine 3 was designed for in the first place: Gears of War and Unreal Tournament 3. Enough said I think.

With that said, not making a UE-powered game vibrant and aesthetically pleasing is a developer-driven outcome led by whether or not they can be bothered and their chosen art direction. Enslaved is a perfect example of a game on the engine that isn't dark and grotty, and there are even more considerable examples the names of which escape me right now (posting from iPhone so not going rooting).

[Twig]

Mirror's Edge used UE3, and it's about the farthest from "gritty" you can possible get and still have a serious tone.

When Japan makes a game for the West, they make it "American", or North American, has Japan made a game that feels or looks European?

I still don't agree that Japanese developers who try to appeal to the west exclusively emulate [North] American developers. Ubisoft, as pointed out in the original post, is not [North] American, yet, they are without a doubt influential to a not insignificant degree. Likewise, DICE (of Battlefield and Mirror's Edge (!) fame) are European, and while they are not the biggest cat in town, people still take note when they release a new product. See: Bad Company 2's popularity.

I mean, define European. Are we talking about the more mainstream stuff from the already mentioned DICE and Ubisoft (and their buddies)? Crysis is from a German developer, and no one can deny the recognition it received (regardless of whether or not it was deserved!) I should probably also mention Rare, even if they have fallen to the wayside in recent years...

Or are we talking the more niche stuff that typically comes from "Eastern European" developers? The Witcher, STALKER, etc.

[Tanukitsune]

Well, I never said it's impossible to make Unreal Engine that doesn't have a gritty look, I just said it makes it easier to make the gritty ones.

Hmm, can I really say there is a European style? I've played games with a British style, with a French style, but I'm not sure there is a general European style.

Maybe you have to live in a country or know it's media better to notice what makes it more "local"? I think games like Runaway have a bit of a Spanish flavor to it, but I don't any Swiss in Mirror's Edge.

[elmuerte]

UT3 has blue sky levels. Some... well.. at least one.

Also, UE3 games with blue skies:

- Enslaved

- Bulletstorm (it's blue with blood)

- BioShock Infinite

- Borderlands

- Homefront

- ...

it's not UE3... it's the choice of textures by the developers :/

[Tanukitsune]

UT3 has blue sky levels. Some... well.. at least one.

Also, UE3 games with blue skies:

- Enslaved

- Bulletstorm (it's blue with blood)

- BioShock Infinite

- Borderlands

- Homefront

- ...

it's not UE3... it's the choice of textures by the developers :/

We've already said that while UE3's default textures are "gritty", that doesn't mean that you can't make pretty games with them.

[Hermie]

but I don't any Swiss in Mirror's Edge.

Perhaps because DICE are Swedish?

Either way, I don't think you can get very far speculating on if an "American" game is "gritty" or not, but rather thinking about the perceived audience that a developer is going after.

Because let's face it, with a few exceptions (like Schafer and friends), most developers/publishers are working with their focus groups and demographics in mind. This is why games like Quantum Theory happen, not because "the average American game has gritty bros and shit-colored sky", but "the popularity of games like Gears of War indicates that the 18-24 year olds in the west couldn't be more excited about poop-sky, so we better make a game that resembles that".

It's a small, but significant distinction, since I don't think you were actually shooting for a list of western games with blue skies?

[Twig]

Well, I never said it's impossible to make Unreal Engine that doesn't have a gritty look, I just said it makes it easier to make the gritty ones.

Hmm, can I really say there is a European style? I've played games with a British style, with a French style, but I'm not sure there is a general European style.

Maybe you have to live in a country or know it's media better to notice what makes it more "local"? I think games like Runaway have a bit of a Spanish flavor to it, but I don't any Swiss in Mirror's Edge.

My point was that "American" games aren't the end-all be-all of Western influence on gaming, even as it concerns Japanese developers trying to appeal to a Western audience.

Also, "Eastern European" games are generally generalized as: janky but super hardcore PC games for super hardcore PC gamers.

[Tanukitsune]

My point was that "American" games aren't the end-all be-all of Western influence on gaming, even as it concerns Japanese developers trying to appeal to a Western audience.

Also, "Eastern European" games are generally generalized as: janky but super hardcore PC games for super hardcore PC gamers.

Can you name a game from Japan that has an Eastern European influence?

Janky but super hardcore games for hardcore PC gamers doesn't sound that specific, you have to be hardcore to put up with a janky game and many of them come out on 360 and/or PS3.

Also, janky but super hardcore PC games for hardcore PC gamers sounds like the definition of Touhou Project a PC bullet game series from Japan, many of the bullet hells that are coming out were originally PC games, actually.

[elmuerte]

We've already said that while UE3's default textures are "gritty", that doesn't mean that you can't make pretty games with them.

Just as easy as any other game. There aren't really UE3 default textures.

[Twig]

Can you name a game from Japan that has an Eastern European influence?

No. What? You've lost me. What?

[Tanukitsune]

No. What? You've lost me. What?

Weren't you trying to say that Europe has influence on other developers, even Japan? Well, I believe Europe and America can influence each other, but I don't see any European influence in Japanese, so if you think Japan is receiving any influence from Europe, can you please give an example?

You guys asked me to give examples of "real" and recent cheerful "blue sky games", so I think asking for an example of a game from Japan what has any European influence at all seem fair.

Didn't a Japanese developer (from Capcom, can't remember the name though) say that Japanese gaming is stagnating because they refuse to innovative or accept influences from others? Japan didn't really create Quantum Theory because of American influence, they did it because they thought American liked games like this.

I'd hate to sour this thread, but the anonymous tag troll is being so derping and "Lulzy" I have to call him out....

You're seriously calling me a troll? U JELLY?

"It's just my online persona, I'm only pretending to be one!"

I can only see three reason for you to do this:

1) You actually think I'm trolling the forums, which means you see hatred, vitriol and venom in this thread... Wow, you must see hatred and despair everywhere you look! You poor unfortunate soul! I pity your pessimism!

2) You want OTHER to think I'm a troll...

What? Are you kidding me? Do you think the people here are foolish enough to think I'm a troll just because such a minor disagreement? Wow, you're insulting the forums intelligence!

3) You think you're being funny... You're as funny as a 70 year old newspaper comic writer, but I guess you must be making a lot of money working for Jim Davis!

Either way, I'm so happy you made just a dumb joke/prank/trolling, because from now on you can say "TANU DOES NOT GET IT!" all you want, I'll just have to remember this thread and laugh at you and your misery.

Of course, since I actually reacted to the tags and mentioned them, you think you've won, you probably think I'm crying or fuming with anger foaming at the mouth and you're right, you HAVE WON! CHARLIE SHEEN STYLE! YOU ARE WHINING WINNING!

I'm sorry I had to do this guys, but the anonymous troll/trolls is/are anonymous, I would have just PMed them if I could. I don't think this will happen again because they've messed up this prank so badly that even if they set my house on fire I'd die laughing at their stupidity and misery.

Here's a video of red pandas playing in the snow to bring the mood back up.

y6GaPkkGZGw

[Nappi]

The "American games" categorization feels really really artificial to me too, especially when we are talking about how they affect Japanese developers. The fact that people here have difficulties differentiating between US, UK and other European games speaks for that already. Moreover, I don't think US sales charts are topped solely by American games. Japanese developers who target US market are not trying to sell their games to American games or American game developers but to American gamers. If these developers are even remotely smart, which I strongly believe they are, they will be looking at what kind of games, say, American gamers play or, more to the point, want to play, and not what kind of games are developed in that geographical region.

Talking about western influence or western audience makes much more sense to me. Of course, there are regional differences, even big differences, but I'd still say that most European games for example are much closer to American games than Japanese ones. This is why inquiring for a Japanese game that has Eastern European influence is somehow besides the point of the whole discussion.

I agree with Chris that the criteria you are using to control the discussion seem very artificial as well. Case in point:

As hilarious and pretty as Deathspank is, can it be called a "happy" game? It has gore in it.

Does Team Fortress 2 have gore in it? If it doesn't then it counts.

Both are very cartoony about their "gore" and surely no less happy than, say, Prince of Persia that was mentioned in the UK:Resistance article.

And to answer the question you put out in the very first post: Yes, of course you can blame Japanese developers for making "dark n' gritty" games for western audiences even if all the American or western games were so dark that you can't see the picture anymore. They shouldn't be looking at the gamers and not the game developers and find their own place in the market.

[Patters]

Can you name a game from Japan that has an Eastern European influence?

Janky but super hardcore games for hardcore PC gamers doesn't sound that specific, you have to be hardcore to put up with a janky game and many of them come out on 360 and/or PS3.

Also, janky but super hardcore PC games for hardcore PC gamers sounds like the definition of Touhou Project a PC bullet game series from Japan, many of the bullet hells that are coming out were originally PC games, actually.

Japan as a nation are quite insular, as are Korea and China with their games. Korea and Chinese games are fairly exclusive to their respective countries. The majority of Games developed here are never released elsewhere. Why do I mention SK and China? Simple, their culture is rooted in Ancient China, yet here in the west our culture stems from Ancient Greece. Those in the East think differently to Westerners, not in cognitive functions but in values and the way they perceive the world. There are an incredible amount of academic books covering this.

A Westerner would view the world as a series of lines between events, whereas someone of Eastern descent would view it as a circle, a cycle if you will. These ideals will of course affect their ways of life and ultimately in this case their game designs and perception of the respective cultures game designs.

The general idea here is that the Eastern ideas are much harder to influence with western philosophies than the other way around. Which may be due to Western culture or simply due to the Japanese consoles being the earliest massively successful attempt.

[vimes]

I don't know if there is such a thing as European aesthetics when it comes to game or to gameplay ... I remember an Idle Thumbs podcast talking about this and the Settlers series; but to me, the overwhelming majority of mainstream and even indie games are culturally neutral.

Arguably though, half of Miyazaki's movies take place in a make believe Europe - at least Miyazaki said he required the architecture to be that way - and in turn, Ghibli aesthetics is beginning to be have a pretty big influence on Level5 games (the Layton games feels very European). Mistwalker took a Polish composers story has a background for their game and the characters in that game are dressed with japanese-deformed version of 19th century European clothes. Maybe not super relevant, but it exists.

[Tanukitsune]

The "American games" categorization feels really really artificial to me too, especially when we are talking about how they affect Japanese developers. The fact that people here have difficulties differentiating between US, UK and other European games speaks for that already. Moreover, I don't think US sales charts are topped solely by American games. Japanese developers who target US market are not trying to sell their games to American games or American game developers but to American gamers. If these developers are even remotely smart, which I strongly believe they are, they will be looking at what kind of games, say, American gamers play or, more to the point, want to play, and not what kind of games are developed in that geographical region.

Talking about western influence or western audience makes much more sense to me. Of course, there are regional differences, even big differences, but I'd still say that most European games for example are much closer to American games than Japanese ones. This is why inquiring for a Japanese game that has Eastern European influence is somehow besides the point of the whole discussion.

I agree with Chris that the criteria you are using to control the discussion seem very artificial as well. Case in point:

Both are very cartoony about their "gore" and surely no less happy than, say, Prince of Persia that was mentioned in the UK:Resistance article.

And to answer the question you put out in the very first post: Yes, of course you can blame Japanese developers for making "dark n' gritty" games for western audiences even if all the American or western games were so dark that you can't see the picture anymore. They shouldn't be looking at the gamers and not the game developers and find their own place in the market.

I don't know if people can tell, but I'm not making statements, I'm inquiring and trying to figure things out in my head by discussing and debating.

I never actually said that only US games are the top sales actually.

Most of the debate now seems to be on what can be considered an influence or another region, but since we can't seem on what makes a game American or Europe, I guess it would simplify things if we just talked about Western influences in general, or we'll be arguing on what makes a game European, Western European, British, etc, etc, until the end of time...

You bring an interesting point with Prince of Persia, it doesn't seem to fit the theme of the "happy games" the Blue Sky campaign is trying to convey, but at the same time, the Sand of Time Trilogy does have a pretty positive message.. if we ignore the second game.

In the first game, the Prince is a prick, a snob and only thinks of glory, but at the end of his journey he becomes a better person and by the end of the trilogy he learns even more from his mistake, he learns that sometimes, you have to live with them. Does this make it happy game? Maybe, maybe not, but it's a pretty positive one with a valuable lesson that you don't really learn in other games nowadays.

Japan as a nation are quite insular, as are Korea and China with their games. Korea and Chinese games are fairly exclusive to their respective countries. The majority of Games developed here are never released elsewhere. Why do I mention SK and China? Simple, their culture is rooted in Ancient China, yet here in the west our culture stems from Ancient Greece. Those in the East think differently to Westerners, not in cognitive functions but in values and the way they perceive the world. There are an incredible amount of academic books covering this.

A Westerner would view the world as a series of lines between events, whereas someone of Eastern descent would view it as a circle, a cycle if you will. These ideals will of course affect their ways of life and ultimately in this case their game designs and perception of the respective cultures game designs.

The general idea here is that the Eastern ideas are much harder to influence with western philosophies than the other way around. Which may be due to Western culture or simply due to the Japanese consoles being the earliest massively successful attempt.

That's one of things I wanted to get at, but my "wordsmithery" isn't that good.

Japan and Asia in general is pretty isolated culturally, which is probably why they claim their game industry is stagnating a bit.