Buying a new Capcom game? Think again!

[Choidoken]

Thinking of buying a new Capcom game? Resi games, Street Fighter X Tekken, upcoming Dragons Dogma? You may want to think twice. From what I have to say here is aimed at the higher-ups of Capcom, NOT the developers. So please don't spit fire at the public faces of Capcom, developers Yoshinori Onochin (who recently stepped down as developer) & Ayano-san.

Not that many people knew about Capcoms business practices when they released Street Fighter IV. They eventually kept releasing newer, updated versions & in some cases, overcharged DLC. The game is finally finished now, 2-3 years later, leaving it to Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition version 2012.

[street Fighter IV => Super Street Fighter IV => Super Street Fighter IV: Aracde Edition => Super Street Fighter IV: Aracde Edition v2012*]

They kept bringing out new versions as people were unhappy about characters being "overpowered" & people kept "tier-whoring". In a way, I was frustrated that most of these unhappy players were all scrubs, but I'm glad they opened their mouths as I was finally able to play against a variety of characters. It's great that all the matches I find & join are not all Ryu/Sagat players, Yun/Yang. I now get Ryu & Blanka players. Blanka balls are more dangerous and Ryu's low forward is now +frames again.

But that was about the updates. I'm not going to go into more detail about my gameplay experience.

Street Fighter X Tekken was announced at GamesCom in Germany, fall, last year. Ono-san originally said he'd finish & release the game in 2013. Too bad one of the guys from the higher-ups of Capcom called him into the office and ordered him to release it by march 2012 (also mentioning they wanted it out before the world ends on 21-12-12, or 12/21/12. Which is absolutely ridiculous!). Ono-san and the dev team worked day and night. If Ono-san wasnt in the office developing, he was in a different country playing an alpha version of the game in a different country.

Eventually, March came. Some people were able to break the street release of the game in their local Gamestop/Best buy and got it early. A bit unfair, as I tried myself & got told off. But I'm glad some certain individuals got it first. Hackers, to be exact. Yup, they hacked the disc and found lots of goodies! LOTS. 12 complete (COMPLETE) characters were locked on the disc, no way of accessing them without a dlc code that is supposed to be released in Fall, 2012. Alternate costumes were also on the disc. All of them. All gems were there too, along with gem slots, and complete color palettes. Why would they do such a thing? Selling us half a game at full price and selling the rest later? If everything was added up, when everything is finally released, everything would cost $120.00+ (That's IF you do decide to purchase DLC, alot of people will). Capcom: "We put the dlc on disc to save HDD space & you could view a characters alt costume if you didn't buy it but the other player has". Hmmm... Something isn't right. I can't put my mind to it.

Choidoken walks into McDonalds. He orders a large Big Mac meal, Coke being his choice of drink. Now, the guy/girl at the till, says €9.00 (let's just say). Cooks everything. Puts everything on the tray. Fine. Meal paid. Before I'm handed the food, the manager comes along and takes half of my fries, takes the meat out of the burger and pours the entire Coke back into the machine. Manager then proceeds to say, "If you want the rest, it'll be another €10.00."

That's kind of what it feels like. Yes, €9.00 isn't alot but when you are talking about a damn disc being €60 and then being asked to pay an extra €60,70,80 for the rest seems a bit overwhelming, no?

Maybe Capcom have finally learned their lesson. But you never know because? It's Capcom. The developers didn't have enough time; New netcode needs to be fixed, fix the timer, sort out the Disc-Locked Content, the game itself still needs to be polished. Nothing was play-tested. I feel like we only have the beta version. They said that there won't be a "super" version. I'll hold you to it. For now, I'll use my copy to collect dust.

Will Capcom have Disc-Locked Content for Dragons Dogma & future games?

*v2012 was a free update but Arcade edition was released at €15.00 on PSN, while the disc version of AE was priced at €25.00 months later.

[Sno]

Dragon's Dogma has on-disc DLC, it was already confirmed. Capcom tried to get out in front of that one and do a bit of damage control, saying it was too late to change their plans. You know, but if they really gave a shit, they'd be giving away some of that on-disc DLC for free, at the very least.

So here's the thing though, i think all the rage being leveled against Capcom is a little misguided.

There's a huge problem in complaining specifically about on-disc DLC, because other DLC schemes can potentially be every bit as bad a practice. (The difference between the two is in development terms often essentially a technicality.) Letting Capcom say that they won't have on-disc DLC anymore is equivalent to letting them say that they're still going to do this thing you hate them for doing, but they're going to be smarter about it so you don't notice it as much.

There's an even bigger problem in only holding Capcom accountable for these shitty DLC practices, they're hardly the worst evil at work here.

I've been pretty upset to see that there wasn't more ire over Mass Effect 3 charging real money for randomized packs of useless multiplayer shit.

Or what about Namco's persistently grotesque exploitation of DLC microtransaction schemes?

Or Square shipping Final Fantasy XIII-2 without either an ending or the character prominently displayed on the box art. (Both are DLC!)

Or everybody's horrible pre-order and online pass schemes.

It just goes on and on.

[Choidoken]

Dragon's Dogma has on-disc DLC, it was already confirmed. Capcom tried to get out in front of that one and do a bit of damage control, saying it was too late to change their plans. You know, but if they really gave a shit, they'd be giving away some of that on-disc DLC for free, at the very least.

So here's the thing though, i think all the rage being leveled against Capcom is a little misguided.

There's a huge problem in complaining specifically about on-disc DLC, because other DLC schemes can potentially be every bit as bad a practice. (The difference between the two is in development terms often essentially a technicality.) Letting Capcom say that they won't have on-disc DLC anymore is equivalent to letting them say that they're still going to do this thing you hate them for doing, but they're going to be smarter about it so you don't notice it as much.

There's an even bigger problem in only holding Capcom accountable for these shitty DLC practices, they're hardly the worst evil at work here.

I've been pretty upset to see that there wasn't more ire over Mass Effect 3 charging real money for randomized packs of useless multiplayer shit.

Or what about Namco's persistently grotesque exploitation of DLC microtransaction schemes?

Or Square shipping Final Fantasy XIII-2 without either an ending or the character prominently displayed on the box art. (Both are DLC!)

Or everybody's horrible pre-order and online pass schemes.

It just goes on and on.

I'm not raging though, don't get me wrong. It's just a thought that I want to discuss, with reasonable people. I don't shell out alot of money on alot of games. I heard about the fiasco with Mass Effect 3. Both games were released on the same day.

Honestly, I just wish we could all go back in time where there was no DLC. Balance patch? That's okay, just don't go the fuck overboard by thinking you can slap on a price. I know Capcom aren't the worst, EA is pretty bullshit too. The reason I brought this up is because this has caused one of the best fighting game developers to step down & people are pointing fingers at him because he's the public icon of fighting games in Capcom. But other than DLC? Give the developers some time to actually polish the game and play test it. There's too many bugs with this game, even after trying to fix the infinite combos. You have to admit, as much as I love the Street Fighter 4 series, Street Fighter X Tekken looks like ass.

Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it!

[Sno]

I'm not raging though, don't get me wrong. It's just a thought that I want to discuss, with reasonable people. I don't shell out alot of money on alot of games. I heard about the fiasco with Mass Effect 3. Both games were released on the same day.

No, no, i wasn't being clear. I didn't mean to say that you specifically were raging about anything. I was off-handidly commenting about having seen this conversation about Capcom all over the place lately, and occuring with much vitriol.

Honestly, I just wish we could all go back in time where there was no DLC. Balance patch? That's okay, just don't go the fuck overboard by thinking you can slap on a price. I know Capcom aren't the worst, EA is pretty bullshit too. The reason I brought this up is because this has caused one of the best fighting game developers to step down & people are pointing fingers at him because he's the public icon of fighting games in Capcom. But other than DLC? Give the developers some time to actually polish the game and play test it. There's too many bugs with this game, even after trying to fix the infinite combos. You have to admit, as much as I love the Street Fighter 4 series, Street Fighter X Tekken looks like ass.

I think fighting games are a strange standout in all of this, and I don't think there's an easy solution. I believe it's a problem with the development culture behind those games. I mean, just to start out, I don't think simply giving them time to playtest it is really a solution. So much of what makes fighting games live and breath is the metagame that exists once one is out in public hands. People discovering tricks that dramatically shift and change perceived tiers and match-ups.

Fighting games kind of have to have that life after the initial release, and i think the problem stems from the 90's where people were willing to pay for those retail SF2 refreshes that let the game evolve alongside the metagame. I think the proponents of the genre are too mired in that past. Why should they do free or fairly priced updates when history shows that people are willing to pay big for minor roster updates?

That's the big problem, and that's why you have Capcom still doing that same shit. (Not even a year for MVC3 before Ultimate showed up!) So in this business plan, instead of DLC/patches being the things that let fighting games live after their release, it's just seen as another way to bleed their fans dry in the downtime between retail refreshes.

I mean, and then you see shit like how many Tekken games are in development, and it's hard to not see that fighting games are crashing towards another collapse.

Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it!

Friendly, meaningful conversation is awesome!

[twmac]

There are a lot of complications that don't have as much to do with the publishers so much as the manufacturers too, or even just the platform requirements.

I can't really go into too much depth on my opinions about this as I have varying feelings about on disc DLC (in the case of fighters, on disc DLC can facilitate online play between two players - one with DLC and the other 'without') and it would depend on the context. I also think that it is unrealistic to think that there is much difference between DLC that isn't on the disc. A lot of the time both products are in development at the same time with the production on the extra content staggered to give the developers more time to flesh out these features. I am against the principle of on-disc DLC but at the same time looking at it from a development perspective I am not sure I see ways round it. In the case of microsoft, releasing DLC means minimal costs, however DLC that changes major features (or that includes patches) will. At the same time for Sony, title updates are less costly but due to download costs being upon the publisher (they are charged for every gigabyte downloaded) then 'real' DLC can be a bitch.

[Nachimir]

On disc DLC is going to be around for quite a while, particularly while people are still on podunk rural networks and equally podunk asymmetric copper in cities. After an initial spike of indignation the first time I heard about DLC included on a disc, I thought about it and decided I'm okay with it.

If something similar were the case with downloads, I'd feel differently. I don't want things sucking up bandwidth unnecessarily, then squatting on a hard disc goading me to unlock them. On a disc though? Fine. I don't pay for games by the gigabyte, I don't set milestones for the developer, and I don't pay them directly: the publisher does.

If [X] is game* and [Y] is DLC, what the fuck difference does it make to me if both are on the disc? If the DLC is developed before the game goes gold, what does that matter? If the publisher are making the developer cut stuff to peddle later as DLC, that's an entirely different issue.

*Finally, an answer!

[Choidoken]

I think fighting games are a strange standout in all of this, and I don't think there's an easy solution. I believe it's a problem with the development culture behind those games. I mean, just to start out, I don't think simply giving them time to playtest it is really a solution. So much of what makes fighting games live and breath is the metagame that exists once one is out in public hands. People discovering tricks that dramatically shift and change perceived tiers and match-ups.

Fighting games kind of have to have that life after the initial release, and i think the problem stems from the 90's where people were willing to pay for those retail SF2 refreshes that let the game evolve alongside the metagame. I think the proponents of the genre are too mired in that past. Why should they do free or fairly priced updates when history shows that people are willing to pay big for minor roster updates?

That's the big problem, and that's why you have Capcom still doing that same shit. (Not even a year for MVC3 before Ultimate showed up!) So in this business plan, instead of DLC/patches being the things that let fighting games live after their release, it's just seen as another way to bleed their fans dry in the downtime between retail refreshes.

I mean, and then you see shit like how many Tekken games are in development, and it's hard to not see that fighting games are crashing towards another collapse.

I absolutely 100% agree with what was just said there. Especially the last point. We have already reached our peak with fighting games and I can see it dying out already, exactly what happened after the 90's, after King of Fighters & CvS2. It's hard to admit it but it's the truth. Even a die-hard fighting game player like me is finding it hard to believe it.

I, myself, personally don't care about tiers. They mean nothing to me. It's hard to believe as I started off playing as Ryu in SSF4, and I have always been a Paul & Law player in Tekken. I was new to the SF scene so Ryu was the best beginner character, especially for link combos and FADC's. I always get a satisfactory feeling pulling off an FADC combo. Eventually I grew tired of such a basic, boring character and learned other shotos, to Seth, to Abel, and finally settling with Cody. For Tekken, same thing, basic characters. Paul and Law were really fun for me. But as with all games, I grew tired and went onto others, Kazuya, Jin, Bob, etc. When I play with other characters, I'm not shitting my pants when I realize my opponent has picked a high tier character. That's the beauty of fighters. Learn the match-ups. Don't get salty

And the whole, people are willing to pay big for minor updates. I will be honest with you. I'm one of them. It's only because I don't play other games. I only like Fighters (With the exception of Dead or Alive & Mortal Kombat) and I know for a fact that I'm not the only one. And Capcom and other greedy companies are targetting not only us. I don't blame them.

I don't mind the old DLC, 20mb for a pack of costumes & having to sit there & wait. Disc-Locked Content seems a lot more convenient and a lot faster. But I don't know. I hope future video game companies will do alot better than Capcom did and protect their content from being hacked & leaked. But everything does eventually.

Again thank you all for the replies. If this was posted on sites like 'eventhubs'. It would've turned into war.

[Sno]

To clarify on one point, i do think on-disc DLC is bullshit.

However, when the reality is that most DLC is planned and at least partially developed well in advance of a given game's release, i also feel that the majority of other DLC schemes are equally just as bullshit.

On-disc DLC as the big rallying cry people get around as what we won't tolerate is really a false lead.

I think it's going to take a while to sort out which DLC schemes are acceptable and which ones are actively harmful, but we won't get there unless people understand the ways they're being exploited.

[Choidoken]

To clarify on one point, i do think on-disc DLC is bullshit.

However, when the reality is that most DLC is planned and at least partially developed well in advance of a given game's release, i also feel that the majority of other DLC schemes are equally just as bullshit.

On-disc DLC as the big rallying cry people get around as what we won't tolerate is really a false lead.

I think it's going to take a while to sort out which DLC schemes are acceptable and which ones are actively harmful, but we won't get there unless people understand the ways they're being exploited.

Very true. I guess everyone will have to do their research first before anything else.

I don't mind normal DLC. But on-disc? We're just going to have to sort that out.

[SiN]

If gamers have a problem with DLC that's fine (and they should vote with their wallets), but where the DLC "lives" is irrelevant.

If gamers vote against on-disc DLC, then publishers will simply withhold their DLC for a month or two (or whatever gamers deem to be An Acceptable Period Of Time). Now I'm left needlessly waiting longer for more content, and eating bandwidth to store DLC on an overpriced 20 GB Xbox HDD.

Who wins in the scenario exactly?

[elmuerte]

I agree that On-Disc DLC is bullshit. If you it can fit on the CD it means it also passed certification. So it was pretty much developed together with the game.

0day DLC is not bullshit, or at least, I don't have a major problem with it. 0day DLC is possible because the developers have "spare time" weeks before the game is released. While there is no new project they are work on, they might as well work on DLC.

[Murdoc]

This content (DLC) isn't a new concept anymore, therefore companies with foresight can plan, schedule, and budget for this content WHILE the game is being made.

The budget and production schedule for this content is SEPERATE from the development of the released game and often the team members are a seperate team from the main development team, sometimes it's an entirely different company (contractor).

It's not so much bullshit as it is dumb marketing because people get riled up and don't like the idea of it being on a single disk. So it's really about packaging, not what's actually going on behind the scenes.

The only thing that will ever change is that they stop putting it on a single disk. Instead, they'll make another disk or have it downloadable and charge you more for doing so, even though budget, production, and schedule is exactly the same as before.

The more people speak up about the fact it happens to be on the same disk the more they will eventually shoot themselves in the foot.

[Choidoken]

I agree that On-Disc DLC is bullshit. If you it can fit on the CD it means it also passed certification. So it was pretty much developed together with the game.

0day DLC is not bullshit, or at least, I don't have a major problem with it. 0day DLC is possible because the developers have "spare time" weeks before the game is released. While there is no new project they are work on, they might as well work on DLC.

This is kind of how I feel with DLC. Again, I can't say much as I only play one type of video game genre; Fighters [Competitive]. And there's only one company that has bad business practices in the fighting game genre..

I want to hear everyone's opinion on DLC before I reply. There are some very interesting responses!

[Choidoken]

I did some reading, this was posted not too long ago. Katsuhiro Harada on DLC.

"What is your stance on downloadable content in fighting games, and how to implement it without causing consumers to feel as if they purchased an incomplete product?

No matter what method you employ for paid DLC, there are always going to be people in the community who see the game as an incomplete product, so I think this is unavoidable.

There may be some people who say, "I have no complaints with the DLC for this game." There are always people who will disagree. I think whatever you do, there will always be debate about this, and there will always be some who are dissatisfied.

On the other hand, are there really no complaints if you don't do DLC? For example, we didn't have any paid DLC for Tekken 6, and several months after release, I did receive a lot of feedback. People were telling me they wanted more content, even if it were paid content: "I would gladly pay an extra $10 if you added something to mode X or mode Z" and etc. It is difficult to add content because it does incur development cost, and often we already have to start work on the next project, so any profit that we made on the previous title would disappear quickly. The company and the shareholders it represents expect a profit, and it's hard to justify as a separate entity. I still think that maybe we can avoid a lot of negative feedback and please more of the fan base if the content was clearly developed after the original game. I'm sure there would still be complaints though, if the content is paid.

I personally think there has to be a line drawn when thinking about paid DLC for fighting games. The line the Tekken team has chosen regarding this is that stages, characters, and moves shouldn't be added as paid DLC. If they are to be added, they should be free. If you look at interviews I have done years ago, you can see I have mentioned this quite a long time ago. It's because these are necessary elements to a fighting game. Much like chess pieces to a game of chess, they shouldn't be charged for separately.

If I were to do paid DLC, I guess it would be something similar to iTunes; you could maybe buy more music to use in-game. That's something I would want personally, as well. Also, maybe some idea that was popular within the community on Twitter or Facebook, and to take that and actually put it in the game as DLC. People were joking that they wanted to see swimsuits for Ganryu and Kuma, so I'm thinking of doing that for real!"

Full article here: http://uk.gamespot.com/features/discussing-fighting-games-with-the-king-of-iron-fist-6377802/