Idle Thumbs 80: Happy Dishonored Halloween

[Chris]

Idle Thumbs 80: Happy Dishonored Halloween

Grab your goblin, and keep your mitts off my last hits. And remember: always pack a parachute. 'Tis the season for video games.

Games and Holidays Discussed: Dota 2, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Dishonored, Mark of the Ninja, Just Cause 2, Far Cry, Far Cry 2, Far Cry 3, Halloween, Dishonored Halloween

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[Squid Division]

Still listening, but Sean missed a 'Monday Morning Lording' opportunity.

[Luftmensch]

Reader mail's back? I approve.

I think it's nifty how you just happened to have a cast about Dota 2 the day after TMA had a cast about LoL. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I think it's cool how you're all playing the same style game but you're playing different games and getting something different out of it.

Also: I totally expected the shotgun cocking sound to turn into the Battletoads pause music.

[dezork]

Could someone post the link to the Dishonored Badass youtube video? Tried to find it, couldn't, but it sounds awesome.

[subbes]

I thought I could fall asleep tonight listening to this (as I've run out of History of Rome episodes) but I had to give up because my face hurt from laughing at Kotik's parachute followed by "it's Halloween!"

[Jake]

  On 10/25/2012 at 2:29 AM, dezork said:

Could someone post the link to the Dishonored Badass youtube video? Tried to find it, couldn't, but it sounds awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H_vW55TsANA

[anthonyRichard]

I had the exact same experience as Jake in the dishonoured bar. Saw guy dressed in same uniform of the enemies I just spent hours avoiding. Sneak behind the bar, hit trigger volume, cue confusion/realisation/tolerant disappointment.

I agree with the notion that if you are going to get a game-over when you kill a narrative-protected NPC, then that should just be telegraphed. Lowered weapons is the most elegant way I'm aware of to do that, with the caveat that it's not actually particularly elegant on the whole. Forcing authored narrative into an otherwise systems-driven game necessitates loads of artifice.

[Henroid]

This episode was pretty great from start to finish, one of the best.

[elmuerte]

Awesome, time to commute with a weird grin on my face \o/

[miffy495]

  On 10/25/2012 at 4:09 AM, anthonyRichard said:

I had the exact same experience as Jake in the dishonoured bar. Saw guy dressed in same uniform of the enemies I just spent hours avoiding. Sneak behind the bar, hit trigger volume, cue confusion/realisation/tolerant disappointment.

I agree with the notion that if you are going to get a game-over when you kill a narrative-protected NPC, then that should just be telegraphed. Lowered weapons is the most elegant way I'm aware of to do that, with the caveat that it's not actually particularly elegant on the whole. Forcing authored narrative into an otherwise systems-driven game necessitates loads of artifice.

My favourite one of these was actually Metal Gear Solid 3. When they realized that it was actually possible to kill Ocelot early in the game, rather than removing the ability to do so they made a special case "TIME PARADOX" game over for if you decided to kill a character that a bunch of the franchise's plot revolves (unintentional pun realized after I wrote it) around. Classy, and gave me a good laugh.

[Henroid]

It really matters how it is used and when. And if it's a choice they give the player it has to exist at every turn in the game. In an open-ended, do-as-you-will game, every choice you're given to do things shouldn't result in game-over. But if a specific narrative is in motion, I guess provide game-overs, but don't just make it random "Hey can I kill this guy? Oh, I guess I can and I lose." Rather the character should be involved in something where you might kill them on accident, making it part of the challenge (which then requires balancing against the already existing danger).

I see the fun in it but I think the frustration is too much a risk. If I'm playing a game out of obligation and I encounter something like that, screw it.

[Dez]

I just want to give a special thank you to Jake for that dateline. I love it when my pods are in 3:4.

[Faegbeard]

On the topic of the High Overseer / Captain Whathisface bit, there are actually 6 or so distinct ways that situation can play-out and end in success. I don't think the other missions have as many outcomes though.

[gregbrown]

Cannot wait for the further ongoing adventures of Bobby Kotick and his Golden Parachute.

How will he fare on the fifteenth of the month when the world's greatest part-time assassin goes after his head? Was the hit commissioned by J Allard or foes unknown? And who is this mysterious Phaedrus: yet another schemer?

[filk]

I had a moment very close to sneaking up behind the High Overseer in mission 2 and switching the glasses. I switched the glasses before they entered the room, but then remembered I had to get the journal. They spend most of the time looking at each other so it's difficult to sneak, but when they turn to pick up their drinks you have just enough time to blink down, pickpocket the black book, and blink back up onto the shelf.

I enjoyed it.

[Lu]

I didn't know either, but it makes sense.

[Korax]

Shotgun talk and XCOM reminded me of something that bothered me in early XCOM missions. I don't know if it's a bug or something, but when a soldier fires a conventional shotgun, you get the sound effect of the gun firing and immediately racking, after which the soldier goes through the animation of chambering the next shell, complete with properly-timed racking sound and ejecting shell. It annoyed me every time it happened, but then I started equipping everyone with laser and plasma rifles, so it sort of stopped. Also, I don't know about any of the other service branches, but with the exception of color, the Base Guy's sweater looks like the US Navy's uniform sweater, so I didn't think it was weird or out of place at all.

As for confusion during the first visit to the bar in Dishonored, I find it strange that you wouldn't know they were friendly. You're given a means to escape from prison by "friends." Once you're out of the prison and in the sewers, you get a trunk full of gear and another note saying "Here's some sweet weapons. Get through the sewers and there will be a guy named Sam waiting to bring you to us. - Mysterious Friends." You get through the sewers, meet Sam, who takes you to the Hound Pits, and gives you whatever exposition he does about it being the home base for a resistance movement as you pull up. I could see maybe being a bit suspicious at that point, but any assumption that they may be full-on enemies out to kill you tells me that you just weren't paying attention to anything that was happening up to that moment in the story.

[coaxmetal]

Jake's story about the first time in the bar in Dishonored was cool, because I had the same experience for a different reason. When I first went to the bar, I had UI stuff turned on, so the objective indicator was those guys so I knew they were allies, but their conversation sounded like it was about me and maybe something I wasn't supposed to hear, so I snuck around behind the bar to hear it better, and then hit the cutscene trigger, warping me to the other side of the bar and to a standing position.

The fact that the NPC's in the bar are killable and will result in a game over isn't super bothersome to me, though I agree that having no weapons there would be better. I did assassinate the noble dude as he was walking up the stairs, just to see if I could and if it would say game over.

[youmeyou]

I accidentally choked out a maid when trying to initiate conversation and got the game over. Apparently you can also get a game over "THE LOYALIST CONSPIRACY HAS DISSOLVED" if you hop into the bath with Callista.

I always found the Fallout 3 and New Vegas system to be kind of hilarious. If you shot someone they'd start shooting back but you could always holster your weapon and they would usually forgive you and pretend that you didn't just get in a huge gunfight. Honestly it's a trope heavily embedded in games since most games are so violent in nature that the only way to get around it would be to not make a violent game. Because friendly fire DOES kind of end things in a real life situation. How amazing would a Call of Duty friendly fire cover up mission and subsequent court trial with national media presence be?

[youmeyou]

Oh and regarding the whole grenade dropping thing... what would necessarily be the point of programming the NPCs to dive for cover? Usually placing a live grenade inside a room means the inevitable death or dismemberment of everyone inside. It's not exactly a matter of turning and walking away from a grenade.

And one last friendly fire example: in Stalker you get warned to put your weapons away over loudspeaker before entering a camp. That really helped keep the narrative consistent and kept me in the shoes of my character. (Though they do also do the whole take away the ability to shoot thing which I think was unnecessary.)

[Badfinger]

I have no problem with the Dishonored Game Over screen for killing a "friendly" target. Nothing is taboo. You can kill or not kill literally everyone in the game except Emily. You can talk to all of them, or riffle through all their belongings and journals, or you can leave it alone. I felt like everything in the game could pique my interest, and it pushes you to think about what you can or can't do. You CAN kill the school teacher, but she's critical to the loyalist's success. If you kill her, the rebellion dissolves and it's over. You, Corvo, are critical to the loyalist's success. If you walk off a bridge and hit the rocks below, you're dead. The rebellion dissolves and it's over. We just treat it differently because GAME OVER is what you're used to when the person you're playing in your first person perspective dies. You know, because Video Games.

[coaxmetal]

they touched on it in the podcast, but its really a shame the story is just, kinda bad. It's predictable and it doesn't really even deliver on its simple premise. The level design and gameplay ofc are what I came to the game for, and they are top notch, but a decent story would have been icing on the cake. Kinda weird too since supposedly the lead writer was talking some yang about other game stories or something.

[filk]

I completely disagree with the "lowering weapons" philosophy. I wish more games would use the Morrowind approach and just inform you "you have doomed the main story" when you kill a critical path person. Then they let you keep playing in whatever part of the world you've restricted yourself to. It makes the most sense in terms of consistency to me - it both makes sense for you to be able to kill those people, and for you to be able to doom your own efforts.

Alternatively, it would be really cool if you could kill Havelock and co/dissolve the loyalist conspiracy and then get to choose a priority: save Emily or get revenge. There is no reason Corvo can't go take on Hiram Burrows right from the beginning of the game, if all he wants is revenge, and they could make the mission harder to reflect the lack of method (he could also give you Emily's location if you dissolved the conspiracy before getting the black book). Plus you could have a sweet mission where you're just trying to smuggle Emily off of the island to Corvo's homeland, if you don't go the revenge route.

Also, what is with Corvo being referred to by his first name? "The assassin Corvo has temporarily escaped..." is like "The assassin Bob has temporary escaped..."

[Jake]

  On 10/25/2012 at 3:54 PM, filk said:

I completely disagree with the "lowering weapons" philosophy. I wish more games would use the Morrowind approach and just inform you "you have doomed the main story" when you kill a critical path person. Then they let you keep playing in whatever part of the world you've restricted yourself to. It makes the most sense in terms of consistency to me - it both makes sense for you to be able to kill those people, and for you to be able to doom your own efforts.

Alternatively, it would be really cool if you could kill Havelock and co/dissolve the loyalist conspiracy and then get to choose a priority: save Emily or get revenge. There is no reason Corvo can't go take on Hiram Burrows right from the beginning of the game, if all he wants is revenge, and they could make the mission harder to reflect the lack of method (he could also give you Emily's location if you dissolved the conspiracy before getting the black book). Plus you could have a sweet mission where you're just trying to smuggle Emily off of the island to Corvo's homeland, if you don't go the revenge route.

Also, what is with Corvo being referred to by his first name? "The assassin Corvo has temporarily escaped..." is like "The assassin Bob has temporary escaped..."

We were discussing it in terms of what the game actually does, which is to just say "Game Over." If there is no budget available for any of the hypothetical situations you propose (or if the designers don't want their game to be about the types of simulation-narrative branching you're proposing), I would much rather a weapon be lowered than the game just committing suicide because I did an action I thought was valid but turned out to go against the prescribed story I wasn't yet aware of.

[Badfinger]

That's a cool idea. I like it! But Morrowind isn't linear and level based. Once you do something like that, it stops being the game they were making at some point. Constraints/restraint are not inherently bad. They're often good! I'm ok with the game being a linear systems-explosion playground. Maybe a quick vignette about the dissolution of the conspiracy would have added some depth? The story is very bland, but I was quite taken with the characters and the world. I think it speaks to the strength of the game that people really DO want there to be more to the story and the world even just in the tiny part of it you're living.

I guess I'm perfectly fine with the game being over, but I do agree there could be more to be done than just a flat GAME OVER screen. Even "the conspiracy has dissolved due to your actions!" is fine by me. Bearing in mind I was so mindful of this stuff during my first (only, currently) playthrough that I didn't do any of that stuff that would cause those screens so I can only speak second hand.