I Had A Random Thought...

[Ucantalas]

Damn... I was thinking about a career change

That would be an awesome career.

Actually, maybe not. I don't know if I'd actually want to watch 3/4 of the stuff on Netflix... (at least on Canadian Netflix, our selection is kind of lacking)

[clyde]

The uncomfortable part for me is how bad my jokes are when I re-read them. I should be writing opening monologues for the Tonight Show.

ba-dap-tshh! ( that last one is a closed high-hat if that was unclear)

[elmuerte]

I never make bad jokes

[Twig]

I never make bad jokes

Hey that was a good joke!

[SecretAsianMan]

This could be a teaching-moment if y'all were more specific about what makes it uncomfortable and why. Just saying that it's uncomfortable has the effect of making people too frightened to speak. Be specific so we can be more considerate and know how to do so.

 

First let me make it clear I'm not actually offended in any way.  I was sort of half joking in what I said, but Zeus kind of hit on one thing.  Saying "their women" makes it seem less like people and more like things.  Again, I'm not upset, just food for thought.

[miffy495]

Yeah, the fetishization thing is also kind of creepy for me. Especially when white guys talk about Asian women being "submissive" and all that stuff that tends to be implied along with it. Feels archaic and gross. Also, my spell-checker wants to turn "fetishization" into "nationalization".

[Twig]

What's wrong with being more physically attracted to one look over another? This is the first I've ever heard of that being construed as "creepy", and, to be honest, I find it kind of ridiculous. Someone considering Asian women submissive is an entirely separate thing from someone considering Asian women physically attractive. Obviously some people will make that weird connection, but those people are fucked up, anyway.

 

Also this whole exchange just goes to show that everything has the potential to make someone uncomfortable, so we should just stop making jokes altogether. Fuck. It was a dumb exchange and I laughed and moved on but I guess I shouldn't have laughed.

[Gormongous]

What's wrong with being more physically attracted to one look over another? This is the first I've ever heard of that being construed as "creepy", and, to be honest, I find it kind of ridiculous. Someone considering Asian women submissive is an entirely separate thing from someone considering Asian women physically attractive. Obviously some people will make that weird connection, but those people are fucked up, anyway.

 

There is a long conversation about it that I'd rather not have, mostly because I've already had it twice in the past few months, but long story short, the history of racism has made it so that statements like "Asian women are sexy" are inextricable from incredibly problematic instances of essentialization and fetishization.

 

It's like... I don't know, you're tall, right? And you meet a girl who really only talks to you about how she likes tall guys. At least once a day, the fact that you're tall comes up. She points out other tall guys on the street. She tries to talk to you about basketball and hitting your head on doors because that's what tall guys like. Guys who aren't tall just don't get it, which is why she's so glad you're tall. She makes it abundantly clear that being tall is the main if not only thing that attracts her to you. It's creepy like that, except also you're Asian and the reason the other sex is "attracted" to you is also the reason you're discriminated against.

 

 

EDIT: Stuff like this is hard, though. I mean, I'm attracted to really pale skin, probably due to some unresolved crushes on goth girls in junior high and high school. And yeah, that's problematic for a bunch of reasons, some of them possibly racist, so I have to work hard to understand and express my attraction in a way that's not reductive, insensitive, or glib. At the very least, I've got to do better than "all girls with pale skin are beautiful" and "all beautiful girls have pale skin." Pale skin is an attractive feature. So are many others.

[Twig]

That kind of thing is only a problem if the person's already an asshole, though. You can't control your physical attractions (though you can ignore them, to an extent, and they can of course be overridden by mental and emotional attractions). That's just what it IS.

 

I like redheads. Am I wrong for liking redheads? (The only answer is no.)

[Gormongous]

That kind of thing is only a problem if the person's already an asshole, though. You can't control your physical attractions (though you can ignore them, to an extent, and they can of course be overridden by mental and emotional attractions). That's just what it IS.

 

I like redheads. Am I wrong for liking redheads? (The only answer is no.)

 

Like I started to say in my edit above, I think the line is between preference and fetishization. You probably like red hair rather than redheads, right? A feature, rather than a type, and not mandatory. But with race-contingent attraction, that's also bound up in insensitive and reductive stereotypes that a lot of people rightly have a thin skin about, so it's better to conceptualize your attraction in a way that doesn't hinge upon said race. Surely, in the end, you like her because she's attractive to you, not because she's Asian.

[Roderick]

I was just just writing a lesson plan on wetlands for school while listening to Idle Thumbs. "water slowly releases into rivers" became "water slowly releases into wizards". Whups.

 

Surely you meant "wizards slowly release into water".

 

Great, now I have an image in my head of a group of wizards maliciously peeing into a river to harrass the village downstream.

[Gormongous]

Great, now I have an image in my head of a group of wizards maliciously peeing into a river to harrass the village downstream.

 

Using their "wands" to cast Melf's Smelly Yellow Water.

[SecretAsianMan]

Like I started to say in my edit above, I think the line is between preference and fetishization. You probably like red hair rather than redheads, right? A feature, rather than a type, and not mandatory. But with race-contingent attraction, that's also bound up in insensitive and reductive stereotypes that a lot of people rightly have a thin skin about, so it's better to express your attraction in a way that doesn't hinge upon said race. Surely, in the end, you like her because she's attractive to you, not because she's Asian.

 

That's a good way of putting it.  I don't think there's anything wrong with being attracted to a certain type or physical trait (I have a thing for redheads red hair myself so I know what you mean Twig).  But it is hard to make it non-reductive.  Automatically finding someone attractive because they're Asian doesn't seem too far from thinking they're automatically good at math or automatically are a bad driver or automatically know martial arts or a million other sterotypes that may or may not be bullshit.  It seems like a slippery slope to me.

 

The really weird part is I've seen WAY worse in China.  My cousin's wife is White and when they went to China for the first time, my parents took them around.  Everywhere they went, people wanted to take their picture with her simply because she was White.  Many even asked if she was famous and they called my cousin lucky because he married someone White.  That was super awkward.

[Twig]

Surely, in the end, you like her because she's attractive to you, not because she's Asian.

That's reductive and skirts the entire argument. BUT MAYBE THAT WAS YOUR GOAL. U:

 

Listen, I'm not saying there aren't assholes, but I think it's dumb to act like everyone who says "I like Asians" is automatically a goddamned racist, intentional or not. I'm physically attracted to Asian women (more than most women, outside of red hair!) because I like the way they look, and it has nothing to do with their personalities (some perceived submissiveness or whatever). It's purely on a physical level. They* have a lot of physical traits that are appealing to me, and fuck if I even know what specifically, or, hell, WHY... That's just how my brain reacts. I'm okay with that.

 

It's not creepy or gross to admit to being physically attracted to Asian women. In fact, it's gross to THINK it's creepy or gross. Yucky.

 

*And I'll admit to not being very good at telling the difference between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, whatever. Just like I'm terrible at telling the difference between German, Irish, English, whatever. I'm no expert on the differences between various peoples of similar color.

[Roderick]

Oh, I can totally spot the German in a crowd of Dutch people.

[Twig]

Which one's the one with the huge nose, ears that stick out like Dumbo, and blue eyes?

[clyde]

I really enjoy these conversations.

If there is one thing Korean-Dramas have taught me, it's that you don't get to choose who you are attracted to. If there is another thing they have taught me, it's that people are incapable of figuring out the actual cause of their attraction. I could see how any fetish is actually a post-hoc argument

(including claims of being attracted to a single sex or gender)

[osmosisch]

Which one's the one with the huge nose, ears that stick out like Dumbo, and blue eyes?

Usually the Dutchman.

[Roderick]

That'd be Prince Charles, right? Our (Dutch) royalty is indistinguishable from Germans... because they are.

[Malice Song]

Automatically finding someone attractive because they're Asian doesn't seem too far from thinking they're automatically good at math or automatically are a bad driver or automatically know martial arts or a million other sterotypes that may or may not be bullshit.  It seems like a slippery slope to me.

 

Well, finding someone attractive is very far from thinking, though.

Kinda can see what Gormongous is saying, I think, but then again, it is hard to evaluate the initial statement without taking it out of a vacuum. The use of the word "visual" would probably also help.

 

 

If there is one thing Korean-Dramas have taught me, it's that you don't get to choose who you are attracted to.

 

Wise words afaik.

[brkl]

That's reductive and skirts the entire argument.

 

I like it when women wear skirts.

 

My two cents.

[Zeusthecat]

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with being more physically attracted to certain types of people. I bet most people have some preference one way or another whether they like blondes, redheads, Asians, African Americans, people with accents, etc. But yeah, if there is some fetish driving that attraction then it definitely becomes a little creepy.

 

On another somewhat related note, at what point does it become immoral or wrong to say certain things? If I am just in a room by myself and a series of words come out of my mouth that would normally be deemed offensive in the presence of other people, is there anything wrong with saying it? How about if it is only me and one other person who thinks exactly like me in a room and I utter those same words? What about if it is me and 50 people who think exactly like me? Does it make a difference if whatever horrible thing I am saying reflects how I actually feel?

 

Growing up in small towns I definitely developed some fucked up viewpoints as a kid and would freely utter things that were sexist, homophobic, and racist. It is weird to think back though because at the time I didn't think there was anything wrong with saying those things and neither did anyone I came into contact with. It was only after I moved to a larger city and became exposed to different types of people that I gained a better sense of why it was wrong to say those things.

 

I'm not really sure what point I'm even trying to make with this post. I guess I'm just saying that knowing what is and isn't appropriate to say can be some complicated shit sometimes.

[Gormongous]

I'm always a little uncomfortable with attraction being taken off the table as inexplicable and unaccountable, because the same arguments are used to defend so many kinds of poisonous hate.

 

Almost everything we are bubbles up from somewhere inside us through means mysterious. It's up to each of us to decide what is worthy and what isn't, which is a hard process with no clear end. Yeah, it's frustrating for me to spend a lot of my time critiquing myself in order to be the best person I can be, only to discover that some other small part of me is offensive or hurtful to others, but that's how the game is played. Like Zeus (kinda) said, pride has to be taken in every incremental step towards the nigh-unreachable goal of being totally decent to everyone.

[clyde]

I guess I'm just saying that knowing what is and isn't appropriate to say can be some complicated shit sometimes.

I guess until we figure it out, we will just say shit and then hear the criticism of it and try not to take it personally while we refine our methods of communication.

[Twig]

I'm always a little uncomfortable with attraction being taken off the table as inexplicable and unaccountable, because the same arguments are used to defend so many kinds of poisonous hate.

The problem is equating those two things in the first place.