Do you like your spaceships to be guided by pragmatism or fantasy?

[Dr Wookie]

Hi guys,

in the early days of video gaming, there were two big space sim franchises: Elite (1984) and Wing Commander(1990). Both franchises have new kickstarted games, Elite Dangerous and Star CItizen. Both seem to be true to their origins, which are very different, even though they have many aspects in common.

 

In the Elite games, great care has been taken to keep the ships simple and practical. Back in the 80s this was a necessity, but several returning ships in Elite Dangerous have kept to the same basic lines.

 

 In the time of Elite, ships are available to the masses, kind of like how cars are today. The cockpits are very ergonomic and simple, so people can easily check their surroundings (the radar is a design icon), identify ships with bounties, scoop up cargo and manage their systems. The video below shows this stuff in action

 

By contrast, Star Citizen seems like pure wish fulfillment, like the design teams were briefed by a gleeful 10 year old! The ships have loads of cool stuff on them, even if a lot of it doesn't do anything.

 

 

 

The video below shows a really keen fan ogling the Constellation class ship, which is really impressive

 

So the question for you guys is which do you prefer? 

[CTastic]

Though I am far from an expert on the games you mentioned, it seems to me that the answer is quite simple. For me, at least, it all depends upon what kind of universe the game aims to build. If the game world/narrative is one of gritty realism or calculated precision, only the former type of ship would mesh well with the rest of the experience. With games such as Halo, FTL or even Starbound, however, aesthetics generally trump practicality. If I am already suspending my disbelief for the glorified heroism and archetypal aliens in Halo, why would I demand that ships be realistic? Again, I don't think I am really the audience for this post, but those are my two cents.

[tegan]

The Star Citizen cockpit is covered in Pokéwalkers.

 

[Gormongous]

I personally like dirty/practical futures, but I think the aesthetic is subject to abuse and in grander space-focused games like Endless Space I tend to lean towards the "societal philosophy as demonstrated by ship design" school of thought.

[pkirkner]

The aesthetics of the ships themselves aren't generally what draws me to space games. I'm mainly seeking the feeling of being a tiny speck traveling through the vastness of space. As long as the visual aesthetics are coherent with the sort of universe they're trying to build I'm willing to go along for the ride.

 

It's been such a long time since I've since I've encountered a space combat game that I've really enjoyed. I think Homeworld 2 is probably the last such game I was able to get into, and as far as space-flight sims are concerned I'd have to go all the way back to Freespace 2. I spent a lot of time with Freelancer chasing a similar experience, but it just never clicked for me. All of those games are more than a decade old at this point so I'm really hoping I enjoy at least one of these two attempts at reviving the genre. If nothing else, I finally have an excuse to dust off my flight stick, throttle, and pedals again.

[TychoCelchuuu]

I sort of question your distinction. There's not more stuff on Star Citizen ships that doesn't do anything - it's just that the designs are less geometric and spare. The Elite ships have tons of shit that don't do anything - look at all those panels!

[Dr Wookie]

I sort of question your distinction. There's not more stuff on Star Citizen ships that doesn't do anything - it's just that the designs are less geometric and spare. The Elite ships have tons of shit that don't do anything - look at all those panels!

Which panels, do you mean the heat vents and hardpoint covers? Or the thrusters and shield generators? They all work and do things .

 

Personally, I prefer the  Elite way of doing things, and am a backer of Elite Dangerous to alpha level (and a bit beyond ). From what I've experienced, the cockpit of the starter ship (the sidewinder, which is the second smallest ship in the picture) has been very well thought out, and it just feels like a really good place to be.

 

I think Star Citizen looks really interesting, and I will probably buy it, but haven't yet backed it . I started investigating it properly a couple of months ago, so don't know quite as much about it.

 

Thanks for the responses so far everyone, even if you don't think you're the intended audience !

 

Gormongous, I'm not sure about Star Citizen, but certainly in Elite Dangerous there are different factions (based loosely on the ideals of the Roman Empire, modern USA, and modern Europe) with very diverse societies. These produce highly distinctive ship designs, with the Imperial ships being more elegant, flowing and curvaceous. 

[youmeyou]

More than ship design (which you will ultimately barely notice) I'm worried that the space dogfights won't be very interesting. Perhaps with an oculus rift on, but even then, how long can they truly remain compelling when all you're doing is circling forever around each other in a "jerking motion" (stolen from crateandcrowbar.com)? 

 

Whereas, a game like Strike Vector http://www.youtube.com/embed/jypG2qQfLhI employs many Anime-like tropes of dodges and barrel rolls to add some nuance to dogfights in a way that gives you more interactivity and freedom to improvise.

 

Who knows, maybe I'll be way off base, but I kind of think space dogfighting games died off for a good reason. Games like FTL and Starbound are interesting entirely apart from their ships. FTL is about managing a group of systems tactically to achieve your goal. And Starbound is solely about exploration. Even EVE seems to be more about who has the bigger army than about individual dogfighting.

[youmeyou]

+ All ships should forever look like this:

 

[TychoCelchuuu]

Which panels, do you mean the heat vents and hardpoint covers? Or the thrusters and shield generators? They all work and do things .

I mean the panels that aren't those things.

[clyde]

Who knows, maybe I'll be way off base, but I kind of think space dogfighting games died off for a good reason. Games like FTL and Starbound are interesting entirely apart from their ships. FTL is about managing a group of systems tactically to achieve your goal. And Starbound is solely about exploration. Even EVE seems to be more about who has the bigger army than about individual dogfighting.

Does Flotilla's combat count as dog-fighting? I love that system.

As for me, I'm a flourescent fizzy drink in the space-bar, multi-dimensional space-chess, holodeck kinda guy.

[Saline]

I think if your universe incorporates the idea of billions of privateer ships zooming around it only makes sense for the various ship builders to try and differentiate their ships by their styling as well as their functionality and performance. Tyrian actually had the most fleshed-out version of this going on where you'd just get random spam from laser cannons 'R' us and every ship (chassis) brand has its own design language.

[BigJKO]

You're really excited about Elite. This is your second big Elite post. And I think we already had a big Elite thread before those two.. Right?

 

Not that I mind.. this could be an interesting discussion 'bout spaceships! I'm definitely a fan of pragmatic ships and that Elite one looks pretty nice. You definitely picked the worst looking Star Citizen one, though. Doesn't really look finished? I can't even find it in their spaceship roster.. Their other ships look mostly practical to me.

 

This looks practical enough to me, for exemple:

 

Some of them are more excessive in aesthetic detail, but I'm sure each of that stuff is meant to do something.

[Dr Wookie]

@BigJKO: You got me, although the only thread before mine was a brief snark at the start of the kickstarter campaign, unless I missed something!

 

@youmeyou: I'm not so sure about Star CItizen, but in the case of Elite Dangerous, dogfighting is only a small part of the experience. Sure, there's piracy (which is more geared towards intimidating someone into dumping their cargo  because killing ships damages cargo) and bounty hunting. However, the two other mainstays of the Elite franchise are trading and exploration; there will be 100 billion star systems to explore, with handsome rewards for details of new systems and mining opportunies. We will also be able to buy luxury passenger liners as well, maybe engaging in a spot of espionage. This thread isn't supposed to be me banging on about Elite though, honest ! For what it's worth, the dog fighting is very fun, with the devs taking steps to eliminate the endless circling. (but I won't go into details here)

[DaveC]

The Freespace universe contains so many memorable designs for me. You just have to look at a ship and you know, instinctively, how it'll fly;

 

 

I love the look of the slow, fat, payload- heavy bombers relative to the sleek, aerodynamic looking interceptors. It just strikes me now that none of these designs make sense in space. There's no air. There's no anything. But they look cool!

[youmeyou]

re: aerodynamics: I'm guessing you would still want a smaller profile so as to make a lesser target of interceptors. It's a question of payload vs. scale. Bigger ships can bring devastating force thanks to being able to hold more armaments but must also be heavily shielded since they can't maneuver as quickly as smaller ships (mass still has inertia in space) 

 

Those are some nice designs.

[feelthedarkness]

I prefer a bit more whimsy in my ships, as though we didn't live in a society driven by militaristic fervor, requiring all vessels to be submarines. 

[Badfinger]

I want my capital ships to obey all the known laws of physics and not have spacebrakes, and I want fighters to just be the Red Baron but lasers.

[Apelsin]

I prefer my ships to be guided by the holy light of the Emperor's Astronomican. Anything else would be nothing less than heresy! 

[DaveC]

Yeah, I guess bigger ships with more mass would take more thrust to get moving.

 

Haha, I just remembered how in Freespace, when you hit the ''afterburner'' button you get a short burst of speed, then after a few seconds you return to your original speed. Playing Kerbal Space Program really makes you think about space differently. 

 

Not that any of this stuff bothers me in the slightest. I'm happy for any space game to basically say ''Yeah, it's pretty much earth dogfighting, but with lasers and asteroids''.

 

I really need to fire up Freespace 2 again. 

[BigJKO]

@BigJKO: You got me, although the only thread before mine was a brief snark at the start of the kickstarter campaign, unless I missed something!

 

You big Elite nerd, you! It's alright, that old thread was pretty dismissive about the whole thing.

[mikemariano]

I prefer my ships to be guided by the holy light of the Emperor's Astronomican. Anything else would be nothing less than heresy! 

 

Whoa, this universe is insane.

[feelthedarkness]

basically the whole Ork history/culture is good for some yuks. 

[Dr Wookie]

Yeah, I guess bigger ships with more mass would take more thrust to get moving.

 

Haha, I just remembered how in Freespace, when you hit the ''afterburner'' button you get a short burst of speed, then after a few seconds you return to your original speed. Playing Kerbal Space Program really makes you think about space differently. 

 

Not that any of this stuff bothers me in the slightest. I'm happy for any space game to basically say ''Yeah, it's pretty much earth dogfighting, but with lasers and asteroids''.

 

I really need to fire up Freespace 2 again. 

I have a huge pc gaming gap from about 1995 to 2010. I played WIng Commander I and II, but totally missed out on Privateer, Freelancer and Freespace. I was very jealous . I had a 25 MHz 386 SX so couldn't run flashy modern games 

 

You big Elite nerd, you! It's alright, that old thread was pretty dismissive about the whole thing.

This big Elite nerd is hunting black holes for NASA right now . Doesn't being paid for my dorkiness make me a geek?

 

By the way, here is some really nice flying by someone other than me to show off the Elite combat