Idle Thumbs 146: Osama's Dog

[Twig]

  On 2/21/2014 at 12:39 AM, Brannigan said:

I don't think any of us are angry with him persay, it's more about discussing the idea of seperating a work unto itself, to take it out of cultural and political context and why that's really not possible to do. It's an argument we've all seen at some point and I'd rather discuss it than let it propagate even in a small fashion.

I'm angry with you for misspelling "per se"!!!!!!!!!

 

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:02 AM, Urthman said:

I just love the hypocrisy of this guy expecting people to care about (or even want to hear about) his desire not to care--his desire not even to hear--about what's important to other people.

"I'm so sick of hearing (occasionally) about what other people are sick of dealing with all the time."  Boo hoo.

Oh, come on. He wasn't being hypocritical. He wasn't being willfully ignorant. He just doesn't want to talk about it. Which is a fair enough desire, but unfortunately not one that works in the grand scheme of things. I can say this because I'm guilty of the same thing on occasion. U:

[Twig]

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:14 AM, Chris said:

Hey guys I heard about this cool video game podcast so I decided to check it out, it was pretty cool and I liked listening to it. I thought the four people who were on it worked really well together, is that the same crew you have every week? I hope so. I will keep downloading it and listening to it if that is the case.

I had considered pointing out that you put your joke in the wrong episode thread the first time. Now I'm not sure how to feel, Chris...

 

PS, totally get more Danielle on the podcast. That's twice now she's been great! Out of two times! That's 100% of the time! And I guess that Kasavin guy, too, whoever he is. (Kidding, he's great, too!)

[Badfinger]

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:14 AM, Chris said:

Hey guys I heard about this cool video game podcast so I decided to check it out, it was pretty cool and I liked listening to it. I thought the four people who were on it worked really well together, is that the same crew you have every week? I hope so. I will keep downloading it and listening to it if that is the case.

Got it on the second try!

[Henroid]

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:14 AM, Chris said:

Hey guys I heard about this cool video game podcast so I decided to check it out, it was pretty cool and I liked listening to it. I thought the four people who were on it worked really well together, is that the same crew you have every week? I hope so. I will keep downloading it and listening to it if that is the case.

Welcome to the Idle Thumbs forum Chris!

[gritfish]

Yikes - this all went in a direction I didn't expect, but here's a bit of a thought I had - a lot of old franchises (and Nintendo's got a lot of really old ones) take their most basic storytelling cues from "You're a guy and you do a thing. Why? To rescue a girl, I dunno.." because there wasn't a lot of tools in the medium at the time to express much more than that (instruction manuals not included), and you didn't really have video games writers in the sense we do now.

Those franchises are still going, and somehow have to walk this line of being relevant to a world where we DO talk about games in terms of gender/racial equality as well as graphics and mechanics, but also have to stay true to the "innocent" tone of the earlier games.

 

So how the hell do you walk that line, without completely rebooting the franchise? Who's done it well? Which attempts have failed and why? (Metroid: Other M?)

 

Also, welcome to the forum, anti-me!

[Merus]

I think Donkey Kong is a good example; you replace that basic motivation (rescue Pauline) with another basic motivation that's more participatory (rescue banana horde). Instead of Mario rescuing Peach, Bowser could take the castle (and they've done that, lots of times, just with Peach inside).

 

I am reminded of all the historical records we've recently discovered were incorrect because of unnoticed political biases. A lot of the warrior kings we'd found over the centuries were in fact warrior queens. No-one was visibly pushing an agenda when they were marked down as being kings because they had a sword and trappings of power, for the same reason that fish don't see water.

 

Welcome to the Idle Forums, Chris Kasavin!

[Snow]

With Donkey Kong it's not really that hard to imagine. Dixie Kong was already the star of Donkey Kong Country 3.

[Twig]

Nobody was ever the star of Donkey Kong anything besides Donkey Kong. Except the new one, where it's obviously Cranky Kong!

 

Arbitrary hatred for extended Kong family ahoy.

[Urthman]

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:15 AM, Twig said:

Oh, come on. He wasn't being hypocritical.

 

It's at least a little bit hypocritical to ask people to listen and care about what it is you don't want to listen to or care about. 

 

And particularly in this case, where there's just no way he's as tired of hearing people talking about feminism as I am tired of people complaining about feminism.  (And neither one of us is as tired as the women who are tired of actually dealing with misogyny.)

[Snow]

  On 2/21/2014 at 2:20 AM, Twig said:

Nobody was ever the star of Donkey Kong anything besides Donkey Kong. Except the new one, where it's obviously Cranky Kong!

 

Arbitrary hatred for extended Kong family ahoy.

Then how do you explain Donkey Kong being unplayable in Donkey Kong Country 2 & 3? 

 

In fact, isn't he the damsel? 

[Twig]

I've never heard of DKC2 and 3. Are you sure you didn't imagine them?

[Snow]

I was young and admittedly don't remember much, but yes. Pretty sure.

[Twig]

That's weird because I've never heard of them.

[Snow]

I don't have a clever comeback, so I'll just post Cool Kong.

[Brannigan]

  On 2/21/2014 at 1:15 AM, Twig said:

I'm angry with you for misspelling "per se"!!!!!!!!!

I totally blame that on me typing the posts today on my phone. Totally the phone's fault I typed that....yep.

 

[Twig]

totally your phone

 

Snow: I had never even heard of Cool Kong until now.

 

He is, in fact, pretty fuckin' cool. I'd play a game as that motherfucker right there. Shit yeah. (???)

[SecretAsianMan]

His actual name is Swanky Kong.

[Twig]

Hey man whatever. He's got a shiny gold vest. He can have any name he wants.

[Kishijugo]

  On 2/21/2014 at 12:04 AM, Sean said:

Sorry; I have to comment on this.

The narrative that we can somehow extricate politics from anything, especially culture, is ridiculous and often times recounted by folks who are either stoked about that status quo or simply don't see anything wrong with "the way things are." You may not like "politics" commingling with your video games but, unfortunately, that's a lot like saying "I don't like evolution commingling with my science." They are inextricable, for one, and it's kinda shitty to come at someone like Danielle (in any forum) for advocating that the thing she has spent her vocational career promoting be a little bit smarter about not just the things it makes but also the politics of the things themselves. Politikos, literally "of, for, or relating to citizens," is going to be a hard thing to carve out from any community -- especially one that self identifies by posting thoughts, criticisms and dick jokes to forums on the internet.

"I just like games separated from politics," is a statement that somehow suggests that these things aren't made by people who are making choices. That these choices aren't informed by the lives they lead and the world they exist in. And those lives and that world aren't OUR society -- that we don't live in a society of human beings, organized together for our general well-being, with culture being one of its many many byproducts.

 

I do completely agree with you that politics cannot be completely removed from the things men create but I do believe there are varying degrees by which those things can become more political or less politcal.  For example, if Miymoto had created Mario dressed in Samurai armor and Bowser with an American flag draped over his shell and an atomic bomb in his claws I think one could have fairly said of that imaginary game, "Wow, this is perhaps too political for saturday fun time hour.  I guess I'll have to play Custer's Revenge for the Atari 2600 again" 

 

Again though, you're right I had no right to come into your house and insult your guests.  I apologize again.

 

 

  On 2/21/2014 at 12:04 AM, Sean said:

Danielle was making a sarcastic comment towards her relatively unending political position; she is harangued, quite publicly, for criticizing the limited human scope of this culture's "serious" efforts so pointing out "typical gender tropes" in something like DK is, what we call in the biz "a joke." You might groan but that groan seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, directed towards your general dissatisfaction with this dialog inside of the culture of which you are citizen.

 

 

What makes me groan is this.  The feminst angle gets pressed on so heavily I feel that the forest is missed for the trees.  I think that video games are almost completely bereft of good characters, male or female.  In fact I believe the most well drawn character in all of video games to be the female character GlaDos from Portal.  So to me the issue is not why do game designers exclude women, it's more like why do game designers put human shaped things in their games that they have no desire to inject with human qualities.  I think the example that comes to mind is the characters in the Gears of Wars games.  I can't even look at that stuff and this is the most popular stuff out there and for some reason all I hear in the press is "where are all the female characters?"  Where is any character?  Bioshock Infinite itself is touted as some highpoint in video game art but I can't take the Booker Dewitt character for two seconds.  This is my frustration.

[Merus]

  On 2/21/2014 at 2:42 AM, Twig said:

I've never heard of DKC2 and 3. Are you sure you didn't imagine them?

 

You are missing out on what is the highlight of that series because DKC2 is probably the best platformer on the system.

 

Yes, counting the Mario games.

[Video Games Are Childish]

  On 2/20/2014 at 6:52 PM, Sean said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

 

Also, please don't come in here and be an asshole.

By which definition? I have seen that policy used for a number of different things by forum moderators on other parts of the internet, and it sometimes implies "don't say anything significantly challenging the consensus of the hivemind"

 

Nothing I have seen posted in the thread so far is hateful or offensive, but I don't want to bother defending my point with a lot of words if it just means instant deletion + ban from posting again

[Jake]

Nobody's instant deleted/banned for posting an opinion. You might get talked at to death though.

[Blambo]

  On 2/21/2014 at 4:23 AM, Kishijugo said:

What makes me groan is this.  The feminst angle gets pressed on so heavily I feel that the forest is missed for the trees.  I think that video games are almost completely bereft of good characters, male or female.  In fact I believe the most well drawn character in all of video games to be the female character GlaDos from Portal.  So to me the issue is not why do game designers exclude women, it's more like why do game designers put human shaped things in their games that they have no desire to inject with human qualities.  I think the example that comes to mind is the characters in the Gears of Wars games.  I can't even look at that stuff and this is the most popular stuff out there and for some reason all I hear in the press is "where are all the female characters?"  Where is any character?  Bioshock Infinite itself is touted as some highpoint in video game art but I can't take the Booker Dewitt character for two seconds.  This is my frustration.

 

Fair point, though that doesn't eliminate the specific problem of women being portrayed as traditionally oppressed characters in what are portrayed as ideal scenarios. And you're right, there is an overarching issue of characters and stories being underdeveloped in game narratives, but that seems to be a much more self-evident issue than misogynist leanings in stories, which can often slip by without notice.

 

Also (sort of tangentially and not completely directed at you) there can exist oppressed female characters in stories without the story itself being misogynist, and not ALL games have to tastelessly tout any sort of "feminist agenda" or political stance to be considered legitimate but the point is that there's a dearth of stories that are at the opposite end of the spectrum already.

[aperson]

It bothers me a bit how words like "sexist" and "misogynist" are bandied about so blithely. To me it reads like trying to define the discussion through word choice, to a priori assume what you should be arguing.

 

For example, Danielle just sort of casually mentioned that Bravely Default has some sexism in it. (I forget her exact wording) She didn't describe what that sexism was, or why it was sexist. It was just stated as fact, everyone accepted it, end of discussion. I get that if you haven't played the game it's hard to debate, but I don't think there needs to be a debate so much as an explanation.

 

BD has 4 playable characters, 2 of which are female. A fifth non-playable character is also female. Two of those female characters advance the story, while the male characters are mostly along for the ride. Even if the game has sexist elements it is still far ahead of most games in some respects. I'm not trying to argue whether or not the game is or is not sexist, just saying that an off-hand claim of sexism doesn't do it justice.

 

I could pretty easily state that Walking Dead has misogynist leanings and make at least a weak case for that. (Google "walking dead sexism" if you dare!) I could state that about Bastion as well. (And I wouldn't be the first) But simply stating those things doesn't do much for anyone, and is unfair to the developers and the topic. I suspect if someone said "Walking Dead is a great game - I mean, it has some sexist elements, but overall it's really fun" you (meaning Sean) would probably want some elucidation.

 

It's fair to look at the statistical level and say "games as a whole have few female characters, few of those are playable, and few of those aren't conventionally sexually attractive." But calling out specific games as sexist seems like it deserves a bit more care. Especially when it appears to me that which games get pegged as sexist is fairly arbitrary, culturally biased and often based almost entirely on superficial details like key/box art.

 

I often think to myself "please keep your gender analysis out of my games", not because I think video games are devoid of political expression or unworthy of such analysis, but because that analysis is usually poorly done.

[Twig]

 

  On 2/21/2014 at 5:32 AM, Merus said:

You are missing out on what is the highlight of that series because DKC2 is probably the best platformer on the system.

 

Yes, counting the Mario games.

 

Nah I've played it and do not agree! DKC2 is as mediocre as DKC1, with just-as-awesome music, and with the unfortunate lack of Donkey Kong.