SecretAsianMan Posted May 24, 2014 I have general memories of Dresden describing characters like Mab and Maeve and Lea. Most of the fae he interacts with are female, at least the humanoid ones anyway. I can understand their descriptions being of a more sexualized nature since they are supposed to be impossibly beautiful. I don't remember anything specific about actual humans but this is probably just a lack of recall on my part. I can't entirely blame him for wanting to describe women more since he is a heterosexual male who is surrounded by women most men would (literally) die for. I guess Butcher himself could use some more tact in the writing. I'll have to reread it at some point. The one part I do remember was a scene (from a early book) where Molly uses a cold beer and a thin t-shirt to...encourage someone to help them. That seemed weird. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mangela Lansbury Posted May 24, 2014 On 5/23/2014 at 3:31 AM, SecretAsianMan said: I don't remember the details very well, can you guys be more specific? Most discussions of Molly talk about how Harry doesn't really see her as a sexual being, but then goes on to describe in vivid detail how attractive she is. This happened at least 3 times in Cold Days, if I'm remembering right. The whole dance scene with the fae at the beginning of Cold Days has paragraphs of descriptions of female fae in nearly no clothing, then doesn't describe the men past, "Well, they weren't wearing much either, but I don't really care about them so let's talk about boobs some more." This is before we see Harry's brother and he talks about his rippling abs and model good looks, so I guess at that point you can half buy that he doesn't sexualize men in the same way he does women. Even that little fairie, Lacuna or whatever her name was -- the one that Harry accidentally captures and then traps in the oven? Even she's sexualized to a really weird extent. I don't know if she ever walks around naked, but she asks Harry why he wears clothes and then implies that she'd rather just go around naked all the time. For no reason. It's just thrown out there, and then the other little fairie dude starts hitting on her a lot. Basically, every woman that's introduced in Cold Days is sexualized in a weird, kinda gross way. I feel like there's something to be said about the point of view it's written from and the male gaze, but I haven't put the thought in to know what it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 24, 2014 Ok, I see what you mean now. Talking about it has started to remind me of some of this. I will agree that does seem unnecessary at times. Here's my half-assed attempt to justify some of it. Molly is this weird case because he's known her since she was a kid which is always a strange thing to think about someone like that in a sexual way. But at the same time she is one of the few viable options for a long term relationship since they're both wizards and whatnot. Not to mention Harry being a pretty good candidate for a teenage girl/young woman to have a crush on since her mother didn't like Harry for a long time, Harry saves her on multiple occasions, the whole student/teacher thing, and the aforementioned wizardly lifespan. Also he's basically seen her naked (or at least topless) a couple of times, I think. Of course, it's much more complicated now that (spoiler because I don't know if you've finished Cold Days) Reveal hidden contents Molly is now the Winter Lady I think the fae walking around half-naked is within character for them for the reasons I described in my previous post. They're extremely manipulative creatures and they know one of the best ways to manipulate anyone (men or women) is with sex. As for Harry focusing on describing the women, in a way I feel like it's sort of a casualty of the first person narrative style. If Harry is narrating the story to himself, then I can understand him focusing on what he would probably rather look at given the choice. On the other hand, if he's narrating to an audience (such as the reader), then yeah he should give both males and females equal billing. Ideally since it's an authored book, it should be the latter but it seems like the former. I also somewhat agree with the concept that he's being at least partially influenced by the mantle of the Winter Knight and his baser emotions are getting stronger but hopefully it's a thing he can learn to control given some time since he is new to the position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 27, 2014 Skin Game got added to my digital library and I've started reading it. I'm about 12 chapters in. The previous comments about descriptions of women are pretty well demonstrated in those chapters, although to give him some credit, the mantle of the Winter Knight is explicitly being called out as a strong influence within Harry to see women in this manner and act upon his urges. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted May 27, 2014 Well I'm regularly spoiling The Dresden Files and Skin Game in particular for myself as I get closer to catching up with the series, so I guess I'll chime in anyway...It'd be interesting if Jim Butcher used this as a jumping off point for Harry to grow as a person and stop being so self-admittedly chauvinistic. I don't think it'll happen. But it might be nice if it did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 27, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 5:52 PM, Twig said: I don't think it'll happen. But it might be nice if it did. If the plot with the Mantle plays out and actually did this, I'd be thrilled. But yeah, I don't think it is likely. The whole attitude towards women is also compounded for me by some sexuality stuff. There are several instances of extremely convenient hot bi-girl activity. Because that's such a typical male fantasy. But no lesbians, and the only time gay males are mentioned is Thomas' over the top impersonation of a gay hair dresser, Harry being assumed to be the boyfriend of Thomas in awkward ways that are played for a cheap laugh, and then the very weird anonymous gay sex park scene. Now narratively, I think a lot of this stuff makes sense. Harry's history is fucked, being raised in an abusive household, isolated from society and encouraged to fool around with the girl who was raised as his kind of pseudo-sister. The Winter Mantle does look like it is having an effect on him. A sex vampire having threesomes seems totally reasonable, which, btw, hooray for ethical non-monogamy showing up in a book. I actually like how Thomas' relationship has been handled (though there is a criticism there about how her sexuality serves her man's needs, while she is apparently supposed to be completely satisfied by satisfying his desires, but that's going down a weird rabbit hole). But taken as a whole, much of the attitude towards sex and women's bodies is super juvenile. A lot of the characters around Harry have gone through major changes. But 15 books and about 15 years of time in world, Harry as a character doesn't seem to have particularly changed or matured in regards to anything related to sex or sexuality, and may well be getting worse (Winter Mantle or no). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted May 27, 2014 Nuts that this topic is popping up just now. This weekend at a friend's I listened to the audio book of Storm Front, the first Dresden Files book, while we worked. I enjoyed it so much I'm just now listening the rest of it myself. I might make it through the other books too, the premise is fun and it's deftly written. Also, the audio books are narrated by James Masters, Spike from Buffy. Just that added little flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 27, 2014 In terms of the character of Harry himself, I can see how it would be hard for him to cultivate a more mature attitude toward women. Look at the women that surround him most of the time. They're sexual predators, in the most literal sense. Vampires (the White Court are all about sex and the Red court relied heavily on it even if it didn't sustain them), fae (who are magically enhanced in ways that put supermodels to shame), and other sorts of magical creatures that are beyond human norms. They play up the stereotypes a lot because it would probably work in real life too. The guy (or girl) who falls for that kind of thing is likely easy pickings for the magical monsters out there. On the other hand, if anyone is going to turn Harry around, it's probably going to be the main woman in his life. Murphy, while also attractive in the human way, is a strong, independent female. In a LOT of ways she's the strongest character around despite being more outclassed than Harry is on average. I think if a change in attitude is going to happen, it's going to come from her, possibly with her literally beating sense into him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 27, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 8:08 PM, Rodi said: Nuts that this topic is popping up just now. This weekend at a friend's I listened to the audio book of Storm Front, the first Dresden Files book, while we worked. I enjoyed it so much I'm just now listening the rest of it myself. I might make it through the other books too, the premise is fun and it's deftly written. Also, the audio books are narrated by James Masters, Spike from Buffy. Just that added little flair. For what it's worth, even with my criticisms of the Dresden Files, I still really like them. They're fun, exciting reads with characters I love. It's one of the only book series I've ever read twice. And if you liked Storm Front, they only get better. It is the weakest of the books in a lot of ways. The official Dresden fan club has suggested that new readers actually skip the first two or three books, and then come back and read them for background once they are engaged with the world and characters. And even looking at it critically is kind of fun, because it is soooo scattershot. Strong, independent and engaging female characters while also having a bizarre sexist thing going on. Shitty white-washing of Chicago and some possibly racist characters/themes, while also having really awesome non-stereotypical minority characters. There's some incredible world building going on that takes a dozen books before you realize just how much ground work he's been laying for years to set some shit up, contrasted by what is at times some pretty cheesy and groan-worthy writing. Sometimes I like things that are broken, in part because they are flawed. I think the Dresden Files might fall into that category at times (see also Deadly Premonition). On 5/27/2014 at 8:17 PM, SecretAsianMan said: In terms of the character of Harry himself, I can see how it would be hard for him to cultivate a more mature attitude toward women. Look at the women that surround him most of the time. They're sexual predators, in the most literal sense. Vampires (the White Court are all about sex and the Red court relied heavily on it even if it didn't sustain them), fae (who are magically enhanced in ways that put supermodels to shame), and other sorts of magical creatures that are beyond human norms. They play up the stereotypes a lot because it would probably work in real life too. The guy (or girl) who falls for that kind of thing is likely easy pickings for the magical monsters out there. On the other hand, if anyone is going to turn Harry around, it's probably going to be the main woman in his life. Murphy, while also attractive in the human way, is a strong, independent female. In a LOT of ways she's the strongest character around despite being more outclassed than Harry is on average. I think if a change in attitude is going to happen, it's going to come from her, possibly with her literally beating sense into him. Unfortunately, from what I've heard (I've never read them, so no direct knowledge), Butcher's other big series is also pretty bad on the focus on women's bodies and kind of ridiculous running commentary on them, and it isn't written from the first person. So it seems like it may be more an element of Butcher's writing and less a narrative thing with Harry. Though I am still holding out hope that it does get better or that there is a narrative element that pays off. I actually went down a bit of an Internet rabbit hole this afternoon of reading criticisms of the Dresden files, most of which were written around the time Cold Days came out. I had managed to forget just how many problems the series has. A lot of people have some pretty serious issues with characters like Listens-to-Wind, who is a character that I both really like and can recognize has some super fucked up issues in terms of design/writing. There's actually some narrative potential there to clean up some of LtW's stuff, if Butcher ever takes the opportunity to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted May 27, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 8:43 PM, Bjorn said: Sometimes I like things that are broken, in part because they are flawed. I think the Dresden Files might fall into that category at times (see also Deadly Premonition). I haven't read the Dresden Files books, only watched the show, but I think this statement is universally true. I remember reading an interview in The Otaku Encyclopedia where one of the anonymous organizers of Comiket, when explaining why people make doujin, said that people can only really fall in love with an imperfect work with gaps and cracks into which they can see and insert themselves. I think his exact words were something like, "An American in Paris is a perfect movie, but nobody writes fanfiction about it. People want to love something with problems, something they can improve. That's why we exist." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 27, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 8:53 PM, Gormongous said: I haven't read the Dresden Files books, only watched the show, but I think this statement is universally true. I remember reading an interview in The Otaku Encyclopedia where one of the anonymous organizers of Comiket, when explaining why people make doujin, said that people can only really fall in love with an imperfect work with gaps and cracks into which they can see and insert themselves. I think his exact words were something like, "An American in Paris is a perfect movie, but nobody writes fanfiction about it. People want to love something with problems, something they can improve. That's why we exist." Absolutely. A good example in my life is music. My wife was on a vocal scholarship in college for awhile, and has a great appreciation for the craft and art of singing. But some of the music she likes, while I technically can appreciate why it's good, just leaves me...cold. Whereas I tend to favor singers who may not be perfect, but drop dumptrucks of emotion into what they are singing. On topic! I don't know when I'll start reading Skin Game, need to decide if I'm going to wait for Butcher's local reading to pick up my copy, or drive into KC to get it early. I fucked off and forgot to order it early enough to have it shipped to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 27, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 8:43 PM, Bjorn said: Unfortunately, from what I've heard (I've never read them, so no direct knowledge), Butcher's other big series is also pretty bad on the focus on women's bodies and kind of ridiculous running commentary on them, and it isn't written from the first person. So it seems like it may be more an element of Butcher's writing and less a narrative thing with Harry. Though I am still holding out hope that it does get better or that there is a narrative element that pays off. Is that the Fury series? I thought about reading that to supplement Dresden, but it seems like it's straight up high fantasy and not a thing I'm interested in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 28, 2014 On 5/27/2014 at 11:57 PM, SecretAsianMan said: Is that the Fury series? I thought about reading that to supplement Dresden, but it seems like it's straight up high fantasy and not a thing I'm interested in. Yeah, I bought all the books in the series that were out a couple of years ago for my wife, figuring that if she loved Dresden, she would love Butcher's other books. I'm pretty sure she got through the first one, but just petered out on the second one. She didn't think they were bad, just didn't capture her attention the way Dresden did. After that, I just never bothered to read them myself. She reads way more fantasy and urban fantasy than I do, and I tend to wait until she's gushing about something before I try it. Whereas I read way more sci-fi and general literature than her, and she waits until I start gushing about something to try it out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 28, 2014 Given our recent discussions, chapter 14 was... interesting. I really hope it goes somewhere otherwise it's just creepy. Reveal hidden contents What I'm hoping is that the whole Murphy sex dream is some product of the thing in his head or possibly the Mantle messing with him. The Mantle seems less likely to me, but if the dream is never referenced again then I don't see the purpose of basically writing something that reads like a fanfic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 28, 2014 Spoilers for up to Chapter 23 Reveal hidden contents Ok, I take back what I said about Chapter 14. Chapter 23 was creepy. A number of interesting revelations were made, notably the magical pseudo-offspring of Harry and Lash. It kind of confirms what I suspected, although not quite in the form I expected. But Harry being confronted directly by his sex drive telling him to jump in bed with any and every woman within arms reach was kinda gross. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 28, 2014 DAMMIT SAM! I really don't want to wait until Sunday to start reading this when I can pick up my copy. Keep posting though, I'll catch up on all your spoilers once I have the book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coaxmetal Posted May 28, 2014 Oh wow I feel like I just finished the last one. Nice, he can really get them out fast and be consistently entertaining. Didn't watch that live action trailer... but I am pretty excited. I was just thinking about his other series recently, Codex Alera. I think I recommended it to someone on IRC. That one is good too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 28, 2014 On 5/28/2014 at 6:08 PM, Bjorn said: DAMMIT SAM! I really don't want to wait until Sunday to start reading this when I can pick up my copy. Keep posting though, I'll catch up on all your spoilers once I have the book. Yeah, I would very much recommend NOT clicking those spoilers until you've gotten to the appropriate chapter. They are super spoilery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 30, 2014 Chapter 32 Reveal hidden contents Ok, I'm not too proud to admit that I teared up a bit when Harry spoke to his daughter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 30, 2014 One of my wife's best friends has been reading it and started texting her about how much he's enjoying it just to torment her today, because he knows she's not going to be able to read it until Sunday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 30, 2014 Finished it up last night. Apart from some weird chapters I already mentioned, it was pretty good. I still think Changes is my favorite book so far, but this is a good entry to the Dresden Files. Reveal hidden contents Butters is awesome in this book. I mentally cheered when he told Harry that he would handle Nicodemus (the image in my head was like the "For Frodo" scene in Return of the King), not to mention magically powered skateboards and Jedi Knight Butters. The scene where Bob possesses a lion statue I particularly enjoyed. I'm still not really clear about Tessa. I figure she was trying to stop Nicodemus because she knew it meant killing their daughter, but why she teamed up with him at the end I don't get. I realize that Harry screwed up her plans to stop Nicodemus, but in the end he was still the one to kill Deirdre. I was also kind of bummed by the brief appearance of Lasciel. She showed up long enough to get crushed under a ceiling. I was hoping for a bigger, more interesting reunion with Harry. It seemed like Ascher was doing most of the talking though. I'm also not super happy about the portrayal of her either. Being a rogue wizard and hunted for breaking the Laws of Magic I get. But once it was revealed that the first people she killed were trying to rape her and she acted in self defense, it changed things for me. It seemed to be a form of victim blaming, even though she didn't actually get raped (probably). She was a victim still, and she basically became an evil person who took up a Coin and is then (maybe) killed because she abused magic unlike Harry who loved it. All of that stems from her actions during her attempted rape. I'm not entirely comfortable with that idea. I'm going to have to go through the book again and pay more attention to conversations between Harry and Grey. Overall, I'd say it follows the tried and true pattern of Dresden books where you're mostly in the dark until the very end, there are a few conflicts along the way, and all hell breaks loose in the finale with Harry being a dope until it's dramatically revealed he was actually very clever all along. I wish Ivy had shown up at some point because she's maybe my favorite character, but it would have basically just been a cameo in this story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coaxmetal Posted May 30, 2014 Oh man I may have to wait. Or otherwise just, not sleep for one night and read the whole thing, which has happened before. I think I did that with Changes, which is also my favorite book in the series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mangela Lansbury Posted May 30, 2014 On 5/30/2014 at 1:44 PM, SecretAsianMan said: Finished it up last night. Apart from some weird chapters I already mentioned, it was pretty good. I still think Changes is my favorite book so far, but this is a good entry to the Dresden Files. Reveal hidden contents Butters is awesome in this book. I mentally cheered when he told Harry that he would handle Nicodemus (the image in my head was like the "For Frodo" scene in Return of the King), not to mention magically powered skateboards and Jedi Knight Butters. The scene where Bob possesses a lion statue I particularly enjoyed. I'm still not really clear about Tessa. I figure she was trying to stop Nicodemus because she knew it meant killing their daughter, but why she teamed up with him at the end I don't get. I realize that Harry screwed up her plans to stop Nicodemus, but in the end he was still the one to kill Deirdre. I was also kind of bummed by the brief appearance of Lasciel. She showed up long enough to get crushed under a ceiling. I was hoping for a bigger, more interesting reunion with Harry. It seemed like Ascher was doing most of the talking though. I'm also not super happy about the portrayal of her either. Being a rogue wizard and hunted for breaking the Laws of Magic I get. But once it was revealed that the first people she killed were trying to rape her and she acted in self defense, it changed things for me. It seemed to be a form of victim blaming, even though she didn't actually get raped (probably). She was a victim still, and she basically became an evil person who took up a Coin and is then (maybe) killed because she abused magic unlike Harry who loved it. All of that stems from her actions during her attempted rape. I'm not entirely comfortable with that idea. I'm going to have to go through the book again and pay more attention to conversations between Harry and Grey. Overall, I'd say it follows the tried and true pattern of Dresden books where you're mostly in the dark until the very end, there are a few conflicts along the way, and all hell breaks loose in the finale with Harry being a dope until it's dramatically revealed he was actually very clever all along. I wish Ivy had shown up at some point because she's maybe my favorite character, but it would have basically just been a cameo in this story. I was laid up on the couch for a few days with a gnarly head cold or something, so I actually finished Cold Days and then went through Skin Game. Reveal hidden contents The rape thing stuck out to me because it's not uncommon for some writers to use rape as a kind of default backstory for a troubled/disturbed woman. It's interesting to me because Butcher treats sexual violence so lightly -- this instance is just an explanation for a good girl gone bad which trivializes the very real trauma and the only other blatant instance I can think of (when Harry tied up and raped Susan in his apartment) trivialized it as well. I'm all for some kinky sex, but the way that Butcher treats sexual violence in these books makes me kind of uncomfortable with every instance where S&M (or the occasional sexualized but not sexual violence) comes into play. I'm sure I could say more, but I haven't read the entire series so I don't feel qualified to talk about how the series as a whole handles sexual violence. I can only say that what I've read makes me squirm a little and not for the reason it's supposed to. And, like I said, haven't read the whole series. And even through the obvious misgivings I have, the things with Lasciel and Lash and that whole weird thing makes me want to go back and read more of it just because they're still really fun to read. I don't know what's being called back to with that, but I'd like to. The thing with Tessa threw me off too. I don't really get her motivations for anything. That she figured out "oh no, he's gonna kill my daughter," and tried to stop that from happening makes sense, but like you said, it doesn't jive with her joining Nicodemus at the end. But I guess that this could be where Dierdre's speech about how there are certain relationships (quasi-)immortals have that you just can't understand if you don't live for centuries could come into play. It's a copout in one sense, just a way to kick that conversation down the road a bit, but Butcher seems to like leaving those loose ends in there so he has something to play with later on. And Butters really had the most fun in this book. The image of him doing his Batman thing still made me giggle a bit, even through the misery of my sinuses freaking out at me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted May 30, 2014 Reveal hidden contents I'm not sure I'd necessarily characterize Harry's time with Susan as rape, but I'll grant that it was certainly violent and not 100% consensual. In a way, Harry has also been on the receiving end of it too, such as when he took up the mantle of Winter Knight. That might not have exactly been rape either, but it's also not entirely consensual. The big difference there though, is the fact that his act gave him access to a lot of power rather than taking his power away. Of course, being the Winter Knight has its costs too. As for leaving loose ends, yeah, Butcher does that all the time. I have a hard time keeping all the dangling plots straight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mangela Lansbury Posted May 30, 2014 On 5/30/2014 at 5:45 PM, SecretAsianMan said: Reveal hidden contents I'm not sure I'd necessarily characterize Harry's time with Susan as rape, but I'll grant that it was certainly violent and not 100% consensual. In a way, Harry has also been on the receiving end of it too, such as when he took up the mantle of Winter Knight. That might not have exactly been rape either, but it's also not entirely consensual. The big difference there though, is the fact that his act gave him access to a lot of power rather than taking his power away. Of course, being the Winter Knight has its costs too. As for leaving loose ends, yeah, Butcher does that all the time. I have a hard time keeping all the dangling plots straight. Reveal hidden contents There's this whole levity of tone thing going on with the way he portrays sexual violence no matter how you look at it. Even with the consummation of the Winter Mantle, Harry isn't so much traumatized by the rape itself (coerced consent ain't consent at all), but by the fact that other people had seen it. And yeah, the supernatural bits of Susan complicate whether or not that was really a rape in some ways, but in other ways he loved and respected Susan the human, and Susan the human was not present to consent so does that really matter? That's getting into a whole weird, convoluted, unnecessary conversation though. I think I'll start going back and filling in the gaps in my reading some time. These are fun books and I feel like there are some balls in the air here that, like I said, I don't really know anything about. Would it be worth my time to go back and read the Lasciel-related books at least? I don't know where they fall, but I've been warned away from the first few books in the series by most of the people who've recommended these to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
